Azma
Dar

Bio

Azma Dar is a writer for the stage, screen, and radio. She has written several works performed at venues including the Soho Theatre, Birmingham Rep and the Edinburgh Festival, and on BBC Radio. Her debut novel The Secret Arts (2015), published by Dean Street Press, won the New Ventures Writing Award, and her play Vampire in Bradford won the New Perspective Long Play Competition.

Her 2005 play Chaos, centered on a local councillor and his family, and how their lives and dreams are thrown into turmoil post 9/11.

Her 2022 play Noor, staged at the Southwark Playhouse, is about the real story of Noor Inayat Khan an Indian-Muslim undercover wireless operator for the British during WWII.

Transcript

Shiroma 0:06

Welcome to The Next Act: British South Asian Playwrights, a new series focusing on the voices shaping the future of British South Asian theatre. Each episode centers on a conversation with a single playwright examining their creative processes and the political, personal and artistic forces that drive and inform their work, bringing about lively, thought provoking dialogs that explore the zeitgeist in this theatre landscape. I'm Shiroma Silva. I'm a film director, a radio producer and broadcast journalist. With me is Rukhsana Ahmad.

Rukhsana 0:37

I'm a writer, playwright and translator. I'm also the founder of Kali Theatre Company and Sadaa.

Shiroma 0:45

and Jaswinder Blackwell Pal.

Jaswinder 0:47

I'm a lecturer in theatre and performance studies at Queen Mary University of London.

Shiroma 0:53

Today, we're joined by Azma Dar, writer for the stage, screen and radio. Her works have been performed at venues such as the Soho theatre, the Birmingham Rep and the Edinburgh Festival, as well as on BBC Radio. Her debut novel, The Secret Arts in 2015 published by Dean Street press, won the New Ventures writing award. And her play Vampire in Bradford won the New Perspective Long Play competition. Her 2005 play, Chaos centered on a local councilor and his family and how their lives and dreams were thrown into turmoil post 9/11. Her 2022 play, Noor, staged at the Southwark Playhouse, is about the real life story of Noor Inayat Khan, an Indian Muslim, undercover wireless operator working for the British during World War Two. Azma, welcome.

Azma 1:46

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Shiroma 1:49

We'd love to hear more about you and your works. So let's start with talking about your influences in theatre.

Azma 1:57

I probably sort of studied a lot of in a classic Greek in English literature and classical studies. I did that for my degree. So not so much, I suppose, in my writing, but they're always in the back of my mind as a foundation of, I suppose, inform how to write plays in that way. But other writers I really like, it's probably like, more novelists, probably my earliest influence, probably Agatha Christie, because I used to read a lot of that when I was growing up. And even now in my novels, I'm sort of going to crime writing. So all those things influence me a lot, I suppose, yeah, contemporary writers like Kate Atkinson and a lot of crime writers, I think.

Shiroma 2:43

And what is it about crime that particularly appeal to you?

Azma 2:47

I just like mysteries and thrillers and all that kind of stuff, and probably, actually other influences, probably from film as well, things like Alfred Hitchcock. I used to watch a lot of that when I was growing up, you know, I liked something those sort of elements into my writing.

Shiroma 3:01

So let's look at a couple of your plays. There was Noor, and that was about betrayal, loyalty, history, non violent action. There was Chaos, which was also about questions of loyalty and relationships as it were, what influenced those two works?

Azma 3:25

Noor, I sort of just got interested in that story. I just read an article about her in - I don't if you remember - Eastern Eye newspaper. That was a long time ago, probably around 2006 I think. And then I just researched a bit more into her life and read a biography. It was such a fascinating story. I think, after that, quite a lot of other books came out about her. But anyway, I started writing that, and then it took a long time, almost like 15 years. And, you know, on and off, I was working on it, different people were interested in it, and then nothing happened. But, you know, in the end, you know, we got it staged, but, yeah, just the story was just so interesting. And I just liked that, that period as well, of the war. It was just such a fascinating story. And it was like a real life thriller, like I'm saying, you know, I like those kinds of things. I couldn't believe actually, when I, when I read all the things she'd done, that was my, you know, inspiration for that.

Jaswinder 4:23

Obviously, hearing you talk about the kind of influence of crime writing and crime novels, actually, it kind of makes sense. And even when you're talking about Hitchcock and those films that have influenced you, actually, I think you can kind of see that influence quite clearly. But I wonder why for you, it had dramatic potential as a play? Because, as you said, novels and prose were your starting point and whatever you're returning to. So when you came across this story of Noor, and, you know, this kind of historically significant figure, what made you think that there was dramatic potential in that story to put it on stage?

Azma 4:56

Well, it was like a like a film plot. You know, when she she goes in. She's undercover, then she gets arrested, and she does the prison escape, you know, all of that just read like a thriller. But, and also, I was obviously interested in her character as well as, you know, an Asian woman story that nobody had heard about, and a British, well, Asian Muslim side identified with that as well. It was actually quite a tricky thing to put it on as a play because of all those things that were happening, it was more like a film in my head. But you know, when we got to work on it, it was a lot of stuff we had to change because we just couldn't show it on stage.

Shiroma 5:31

Tell us about, you know, how your background and your experiences as well have played into your writing. So Noor, for instance, there's Sufism, is a recurring theme. And in Chaos, there's political Islam.

Azma 5:48

Yeah, in Noor, obviously I was familiar with some of the themes in that of, you know the Sufism and you know Islam and all those things. And in Chaos, it's a British Pakistani family. A lot of the things that I write about do come from stories I've heard from people I know, and you know, within our community. And it is, I think the stuff that I write does reflect, you know, a lot of my background, and, you know, families and things that are personal to me.

Shiroma 6:20

And what about Sufism?

Azma 6:21

Yeah, Sufism. Actually don't know too much about but I've read a little bit about it, but obviously I know the basics of it really.

Rukhsana 6:32

So is there an image or a symbol that is a favorite of yours that is in the place that acts as a secret heartbeat of the story?

Azma 6:40

In Noor I think it was, I was thinking about this - I think it's the idea of light and dark, maybe in the language as well. And I think we did try to use of different types of light to reflect different situations. So that was moonlight and sort of harsh electric light and different situations and darkness as well. I don't know how much of it actually came actually came through when we did the final thing, but that was a thing that was running through it.

Rukhsana 7:08

The meaning of her name is also light, isn't it?

Azma 7:10

Yeah, exactly.

Rukhsana 7:11

So that's quite significant.

Azma 7:13

Yeah, that was, that was part of it as well. Yeah.

Rukhsana 7:15

Okay, that's lovely to know. That's great.

Shiroma 7:17

And I was going to ask about your voice as well as a writer. How you find that?

Azma 7:23

I think the way I write naturally is quite I write about serious things, but always have a bit of humor in it, which I don't really do deliberately. I think just comes out as I'm writing it as I've gone on. I felt that that's that is my style, if you like. So actually writing things like when I've been asked to write something else, or writing when I don't know, it was quite hard to be a bit more serious all the way through, because obviously I wasn't gonna, like, make jokes in that play or so I think naturally, that's what my voice is like.

Jaswinder 7:54

And I was gonna ask, you know, you've said that kind of novels were the thing that you were originally interested in, and the form of writing that you're originally interested in. So how did you find your way into theatre? How did you find yourself writing plays?

Azma 8:08

Well, I think it started off. I think I saw an ad in the paper where the Royal Court young writers competition, and they said, of anybody who writes in, they'll get feedback on the play. So I thought, you know, even if I don't get anywhere, at least I'll get, you know, an opinion on my writing. Because I used to write, love writing, when I was at school, and, you know, was thought of, maybe I'll be a writer one day. And so I sent that in, but it was only like a, I think was about 15/16, pages. I just did it in a rush and some little typewriter. In those days, it wasn't even a computer. They invited me to the young writers program, so that's why I got into writing plays. And then I think a couple of years after that, I wrote Chaos.

Shiroma 8:56

Okay, so through those processes, you you garnered your own voice, because that's a gradual process, isn't it? It doesn't just come overnight.

Azma 9:06

Yeah, I think when I was at the Royal Court, I think the first thing I wrote, I mean, it was a playwriting workshop, but the the tutor said, you can write anything and just give it to me. I'll give you feedback. So at that time, I was sort of writing a novel in my head, and that's what I handed in, and nothing happened with it, but it was that was kind of a practice for me. I think of, you know, working out the way I write and stuff.

I think I've always - it sounds a bit weird - but I can kind of have a voice in my head when I, you know, just makes up things. And so when I wrote Chaos, I think it just came out. I don't know if that makes sense.

Shiroma 9:44

Tell us about how those experiences all helped to garner your voice.

Azma 9:50

I think from the first thing I ever wrote was a novel which was just kind of, I think this kind of practice novel, it was quite autobiographical and nothing really happened. I think that's why nobody ever published it, but I think that was kind of like bringing out the voice that was in my head, which is always there. So when you sort when I think, when I sometimes, I just make up little stories in your head, when you see situations. And I think that was, I think, probably a process which then led on when I wrote Chaos. I think some of that voice was already there. I don't know if that makes any sense.

Rukhsana 10:27

Is your politics reflected in your work? Do you think?

Azma 10:30

I think so. Yes, I'm not - actually. I'm not really a very political person. I don't really know a lot. If somebody asked me, I probably wouldn't know a lot of what was going on. But obviously you do have opinions and politics. And definitely in Chaos, it was quite a political piece, things that were going on at that time after 9/11 and it was, yeah, definitely, I just wanted to sort of show something, maybe I don't know if people didn't know a lot about I mean - now I think it's stuff like, with Palestine and everybody knows about that. But I think when I wrote Chaos, it was, I was trying to show something that maybe people didn't think about a lot. You know, the idea of the British Asian identity and how, you know, it might be confusing for some people, when there's Muslim countries involved as British, Asian Muslim.

Rukhsana 11:30

What really works in that play the relationships, isn't it? It's a relationship drama as much as it is about politics I suppose.

Azma 11:37

Yes, yeah, definitely. I wanted to show a family that was kind of breaking apart and reflects the sort of global thing into that.

Jaswinder 11:47

Yeah, that kind of familial chaos alongside the kind of political chaos. I wonder, actually, if you could say a little bit more about the process of writing that play, because, as you say, it was staged in 2005, not long after 9/11 seeing the rise of Islamophobia, the so called War on Terror, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, but also huge anti war protests, this big political mobilization in Britain, including of Muslim communities. So you've told us a little bit about the ideas you wanted to explore in that play, but I'd be really interested to hear more about how you found writing that story at that time, at that kind of juncture in British politics and global politics, and how it was received also.

Azma 12:28

So I sort of started off the idea that I wanted to talk about, you know, the war and how that impacted, as I said, British Asian Muslims, and how it might lead to a sort of confusion, but questions, I suppose, as you know about identity and politics and all that. I wanted to show that family, the husband and wife, especially the relationship between them, when everything seems okay, but really it's falling apart. And then, you know the kids as well. But yeah, writing at that time, I suppose it felt a little bit brave to me at that time, and when I first did the reading, yeah, it was received quite well. And I don't know, it was kind of a, maybe a little bit of a weird piece, I don't know.

Shiroma 13:30

I mean, was the outside reflecting the inside, or the inside reflecting the outside, or both reflecting each other?

Azma 13:37

I think both reflecting each other. You know, it was kind of supposed to show extreme points of view within the family and so extreme, you know, along the political spectrum, I suppose different, you know, opposing points of view. Just people not understanding each other. I suppose.

Jaswinder 13:58

I think it's really interesting rereading that play now. It's been 20 years since it was staged. And that kind of dynamic between, you know, the father who's this aspiring Labour councilor, and the kind of conflict between him and his son in terms of their political disjuncture seems really relevant for now. It seems like, actually the kind of current situation and what we see with the Labour Party today and these still ongoing fissures amongst these communities, it feels like there's a lot in that play that still speaks to the current moment. Do you find yourself kind of revisiting that, or or how do you think about that play in light of today?

Azma 13:59

I think so. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I do think when you see the same sort of things happening, you know, in some ways, nothing's changed really, and maybe it's still relevant today, you know, as it was then.

Rukhsana 14:36

So do you think you're feeling more confident about writing? Does there come a point when the words take over and the plays write themselves and you don't have to write yourself?

Azma 14:58

Um, no, I don't think so. Sometimes it does when you - when you've got a good idea, and you think, oh yeah, it comes out really quickly. But I think the last play, which was, Noor, you know, we spent ages on that, and it was - I got to a point, I said I can't rewrite it anymore. We did, you know, we did so many drafts on that it was just really hard to get it right.

Rukhsana 15:21

Yes, but it was a stunning piece, and especially as it was played in the traverse.

Azma 15:25

Yeah, I think it was - Poonam (director), did a really good job on that, and we worked together on it for a long time, almost, I think five years. I think just re-writing, and then I think COVID happened, so then that delayed it as well.

Shiroma 15:38

And similarly, with the characters, do you find when you're writing the characters sometimes are pulling in one direction which you hadn't foreseen, and maybe you're pulling against that in another direction? How does it work?

Azma 15:51

Yeah, I think so. Sometimes, you know, when you got the character really clear in your head, it can kind of write itself, and then it's quite easy and it's quite fun. But also I think sometimes I find that I write a character which maybe I'd written it with one thing in my mind, that he's a little bit of a baddie. And then as you write or you get input from somebody else, and think, oh, actually, maybe I should be saying something else with him or her. Like in when I wrote Paper Thin, there was the character who's doing the visa. It's like a fake marriage to get a visa here, which I sort of started off, I thought he's going to be a baddie. But then as it went on, and I came to see things from his point of view and why he was doing that. You know, I think the play changed quite a lot.

Jaswinder 16:47

It's interesting because your plays often stage these very oppositional characters, or characters who really represent extreme ends of a political polarization or kind of political situation. So it must be difficult to navigate that as a writer, to make sure all of your characters feel like real, rounded characters, even though they're taking such different moral and ethical and political stances within the plays.

Azma 17:13

Yeah, I think that is quite tricky, and you do have to be careful not just just to show and just to be extremist, and, you know, anything black and white, you have to make them a bit more real, believable.

Rukhsana 17:25

I mean, as a playwright, you are exploring conflict for yourself, aren't you? So in a way, it's quite interesting that you set it up as a conflict outside of yourself. But is there any conflict that you feel you've resolved through a play which you would not have done otherwise? Is there a secret part of your thinking that you might have confronted?

Azma 17:47

I think maybe, maybe that the Paper Thin one in that I think I started writing because we, we I came across quite a few people who had done this thing, either done paper marriages, or they'd - in our family even then, you know, some of the girls had got married to people and found out that the husband had another wife, had married them to get a visa. So I had a really negative view on these, well, the character that I started writing about. But as I said, when I started writing it, and I sort of gave him a bit more background so he wasn't lying in the play, and so he had his own story, in other words. And so I think that got me thinking about how I view people as well, and maybe I'm a bit prejudiced in the way I look at people. So I think that, if that answers what you're saying.

Rukhsana 18:48

Yes, I suppose I don't know - I think one deals with all those unresolved issues within oneself. As a playwright, as you deal with the play, as your characters, deal with them you also discover some unresolved issues about yourself, or about your own philosophy, or your own life, your identity. Have they been transformative? Transformative in that sense, any of the plays for you?

Azma 19:17

When I wrote Noor, just going over her story again and again, she's such a heroic character. And from that play, I think I felt quite inspired, to try and be a more useful and better person myself. So I, you know, that's, that's one thing.

Shiroma 19:38

And Noor, which I absolutely loved, by the way, was a play that had these very separate characters, but they were talking to each other in disparate spaces almost, and it jumped about in time, whereas Chaos was a much more linear form and structure. So how do you arrive at these ideas? What sort of spurs you on into, into exploring these various ways of presentation?

Azma 20:03

Well, with with Noor, it was, I quite enjoyed that process, actually, of making that structure because we wanted to show, I suppose, kind of frame it between, because it's her story and then it's the story of her captor, and her, the person who recruited her - Veera Atkins. So we sort ofplotted it out like that. So it was going between past and present, which I quite enjoyed the idea of them, of the two characters discussing her life in one room and then going going back into her life, her story.

Jaswinder 20:48

So it's about kind of how you come across the structure or the form, that is best fitting for the story that you're writing.

Shiroma 20:56

Because Chaos was then a very linear affair.

Azma 21:01

Yeah I think, I think that's also to do with that being the first thing that I wrote. So I wasn't exploring those sort of things so much at that time, and I just wrote it as I saw it. Yeah.

Jaswinder 21:11

So the kind of longer you've gone on with the writing, the more you've been opened up to kind of exploring those different forms of storytelling? I wonder for you as a writer, what is the starting point. Is it the story, the idea? Do you start with character, or what? What is the kind of first thing that you're imagining when you start writing a play? What's the kind of driving impulse?

Azma 21:33

I think it could be any of those things. Actually, sometimes it's character. Sometimes it's just a story that I've heard. With Chaos obviously, it was a political idea, the ideas of, you know, Afghanistan and the war and all those things. With Paper Thin I think it was the character,and that idea of the immigration and the novel that I wrote, my last novel, it was the character as well. It's about a woman who's just had three husbands and then, and that was actually structure as well. That was telling her story. And in between, it was each of the husbands telling their story as well, trying to give different points of view. So, yeah, it can start with anything. I think different things. Every time.

Shiroma 22:24

Do you feel you have a reservoir of material and stories in you?

Azma 22:29

Yeah I used to. Yeah, I do. I think, I think there's still lots of things that I'd like to write about. But yeah, it's just trying to find the right way of doing them, whether they're interesting to other people or not just me.

Jaswinder 22:45

And I wonder if you could reflect a little bit about what you've kind of seen in your time since you began as a writer, how things might have changed for British Asian writers particularly. Obviously, we're thinking specifically of theatre, but I'm thinking more broadly in terms of the arts, including, you know, with your writing of novels and fiction, have opportunities improved? Are we seeing more diversity in terms of the stories and the voices that are coming through? What's your kind of sense of how that landscape has shifted in the 20 years or so since you started writing?

Azma 23:17

Yeah, I think probably yeah more diverse stories, I'd say, now, than before, and I suppose in theatres, there's a lot more Asian people in charge of things as well. So it's - and I don't know how, whether it's easier for writers to get their work on or not, I'm not sure, but definitely I think a lot more talent as well, in theatre. And I think even in crime writing as well, which used to be very, I suppose, white, you know, but there's quite a few Asian voices coming out there as well, I think, which is really interesting, nice to see.

Shiroma 23:56

And in terms of you as a person as well, how would you describe yourself, what would you say if somebody didn't know you - your own character?

Azma 24:08

I'm a really extremely shy person. You know, if you'd asked me to do this five years ago, I wouldn't have done it. Probably I'm really quiet and really shy.

Shiroma 24:20

And has the writing experience enhanced, changed, transformed you as a person and your identity, your perceptions and those of your relationships and people around you?

Azma 24:35

Well, coming back to the shy thing, I think it has helped that, you know, just putting plays on and having to talk about them, and working with actors, because that's has given me a bit more confidence to talk a little bit more. In other ways, I don't know. In relation you just, you just carry on as normal. I think I don't know if it - if being a writer really changes my relationships with other people. I don't know about that.

Jaswinder 25:00

It's interesting though, that you've kind of gone back and forth between novels and theatre, and now back to novels. Obviously, theatre making is a really collaborative process, whereas writing in novels is quite a solitary process, and the kind of production of the text, you know, that's kind of everything, and you can do that in isolation as one individual, whereas theatre necessitates working with other people and their creative vision coming to bear on your ideas. So I wondered how you find that experience, the collaborative process of theatre making, and you know, do you have a preference, or do they bring out different sides of you, or you as a writer and an individual?

Azma 25:36

I'd say they bring out different sides. I do really enjoy that collaborative process. I like working with - especially when you've got a director who really understands what you're talking about. So that's, I really like working with actors as well. And that's really when you, when you when you hear them reading out your words. It's, it's quite fun, really. I like that part.

Jaswinder 25:55

Has it changed your plays at all? You know? Do you ever in rehearsal or in development hear the actors reading out a script, and you hear your scene or your words in a way that is different from how you originally imagined them or how you intended them?

Azma 26:09

Yeah, definitely. I change stuff all the time. You know, it can show something that's really bad as well, and just cut it out, just going on too long. And even, you know, something might just not sound right, so you just change it. And I think the other fun part is actually watching the play with an audience as well. I really enjoy that. Just to see, I like to sit at the back and just watch people's reactions.

Shiroma 26:33

So you get a lot from the feedback and absorbing the the atmosphere, almost?

Azma 26:38

Yeah, definitely. Actually. And also, you know, when you do workshops and stuff and hearing what actors think about, you know, but you know, they come up with different things, things that I wouldn't have even thought about. Sometimes you even learn, you know, I learned stuff about the characters that I've written myself from other people. You know, things that I haven't considered.

Shiroma 27:01

But can I ask, how do you then discriminate? Because not everything that everybody says is something you can take on board. Surely?

Azma 27:09

No, yeah, you're right. It can get a bit too much, too many voices as well, people, too many opinions as well, sometimes. So, you know, I've had times when I haven't really agreed with something, but I've done it, cut it or something. And then after a while, somebody will - somebody else will say, you know, why haven't you done this. And I'll say it was there, but I changed it, and I now I have to change it back. And so it does go on. You do go on the round and round a bit. Sometimes, when you've got too many people.

Rukhsana 27:36

It's interesting. You call yourself shy, because I don't think you come over as shy in your Instagram posts, for example.

Azma 27:44

My Instagram?

Jaswinder 27:45

I need to follow you on Instagram now. I need to know where she's referring to.

Azma 27:49

They're just pictures of trees and flowers and stuff, isn't it?

Rukhsana 27:52

On their Instagram I think you've done stuff about your book, haven't you, promotional stuff?

Azma 27:57

Oh, yeah.

Rukhsana 28:01

Yeah, that's very interesting. So that's what I was referring to. I mean, it's a novel. Its, again, is this thing between novel and playwright - plays that is quite interesting. I was going to say that we talk quite a lot about writing. Is there a secret part of the writing that you know, that you think you would not like to...

Azma 28:21

I would not like to tell anybody?

Rukhsana 28:24

That you, you're not aware of yourself. But that really controls things.

Azma 28:29

Well, I suppose I do borrow from people that I know, that's not a very nice thing. Maybe, I mean not stories, just a character. Sometimes I think oh, I've based you know, some of my characters little bit on that person.

Shiroma 28:45

I think that's a common practice, isn't it?

Rukhsana 28:46

Oh, that's you mean, real life characters? Of course you have to, because that's inevitable, isn't it? That's inevitable.

Azma 28:54

Yeah. That's one thing, I suppose. I sometimes try stories out on my husband. He's not, he's not a reader. He's not into any of that sort of stuff, but he's quite good to just say, what do you think of this.

Jaswinder 29:06

Sounding board. You said something really interesting a few minutes ago about kind of audiences and how, how you benefit from that feedback from the audience, or that reception of the audience to your scripts. I'm wondering, have audiences changed? You know, in the period that you've been writing, have you noticed a change in audiences, the stories that they're receptive to, willing to hear, the kind of openness, I guess, of an audience to the plays that you want to write and the characters you want to explore?

Azma 29:36

When I sit in the audience, it's normally, I think it is normally like the when - when they're in London, it's normally white, largely white audience.

Jaswinder 29:45

And that's stayed the same?

Azma 29:47

I think so, yeah, unless, unless it's been plays that have been put on, like in West London, like in a like, say, Waterman's or something, then we do get a large Asian audience. Which was quite fun for that the play that we did do there. Because, it was because you actually have a lot of Asian jokes and stuff - Paper Thin.

Jaswinder 30:06

So, yeah, that's really interesting. I wonder like do, when you write a play are you thinking of a particular audience in mind when you write it? Are you thinking how legible are these jokes, or how legible are these references going to be?

Azma 30:19

Yeah, sometimes, but I think I have had it with non Asian audiences, and they do seem to get it as well. So it's a bit of both, which I'm glad. So it's kind of yeah, bit of both, really, I think. But I mean, there's sometimes when I write, when I write something with Punjabi or Urdu in it then, obviously I'm thinking of an Asian audience then. Which I kind of do a bit less of now, because a lot of the time I find that actors can't say the lines.

Shiroma 30:51

So talking about audiences and receptiveness, what do you feel are still the barriers? You said that many, many Asian people in theatre and writing, it has got better, but there are still barriers. Surely. What are the barriers stopping other Asian writers getting to where you are?

Azma 31:14

It's probably the same problems that I faced when I was early on. Just, it's just hard to get work on. I think just a lot of rejection. I think, you know, it's took me a long time to get get the work you know, that I've done. So I think you just need to just keep going.

Shiroma 31:33

Is that specific to being a minority writer, though, is that not, not the call of all writers?

Azma 31:39

Probably is, yeah, maybe it is a bit more from minority writers, I think, because maybe - I think sometimes I do get feedback that people might not get this about what you're writing about, you know, whether it's novels or plays or whatever. Probably more with novels, actually, probably that's that's why I said I had a bit more luck with the plays, Maybe because I've been lucky to work with Kali theatre, who've put my work on. It's probably been harder with novels. I think.

Jaswinder 32:09

So I wonder, then, what are your kind of hopes, or what would you like to see in terms of the kind of future of British Asian theatre? What do you think is missing? Or what would you like to see more of or what spaces do you think can be opened up in the in the next 10 years - that's an arbitrary number, but?

Azma 32:28

But, yeah, I suppose just people being able to write what they want to and, you know, being able to get that put on. You know, sometimes I think you you can only get stories on if they're a certain type of thing, whether they're, I don't know, daring enough or, you know, you know, I mean, like they're -

Shiroma 32:52

They might have mass appeal?

Azma 32:53

Yeah, mass appeal. Or they're, if they're an Asian thing, they have to be sort of a bit controversial, yeah, something like that to get to get put on. So does that make sense? Yeah?

Rukhsana 33:08

It's the wrong kind of interest, isn't it? If you want, are you afraid of that kind of interest controversy? You're not. Are you?

Azma 33:17

No, I'm not afraid of it, if it's something that I want to write about at that time, but I'm not to be forced into writing something, if that's something that I want to write, but not not being able to put on something that isn't just because it's a story that's not sensational, I suppose.

Shiroma 33:35 You don't want controversy for the sake of controversy.

Azma 33:37

Yeah, yeah.

Rukhsana 33:39

So now tell me, is there a favorite play of yours? It's a very unfair question, because it's like asking a mum, you know, is there a favorite child of yours? But if you feel like, is there a favorite play, and is there a favorite line in it that you remember, that you might like to talk to us about, or is there a favorite moment that you'd like to talk about?

Azma 33:59

I think it's probably Paper Thin, because we had a lot of fun doing that. It was quite funny to me, but I have to think about the line. I can't think the line off the top of my head.

Shiroma 34:10

What about a moment within Paper Thin?

Azma 34:13

Well, yeah, it's about it's four characters, two men and two women living, the three of them live in this house, and there's a landlady who's arranging these paper marriages, and she's come from Pakistan herself. And then there's one very naive guy who they trick into marrying a lady, but they keep taking money from him. And then she has another boyfriend. He dresses up as Elvis Presley as well. So that was quite a funny moment, I suppose, when he comes out with his dressing gown and the feather boa around his neck.

Jaswinder 34:48

Yeah, that's a great moment.

Azma 34:51

And we, actually, we had really good actors that time who did know, who could speak the Punjabi. So they did the lines really well. Yeah, there's probably quite a few funny lines, but I just, I just can't remember them right now.

Rukhsana 35:03

You've given us a funny moment. Thank you for that.

Shiroma 35:05

Azma thank you very much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.

Azma 35:07

Thank you very much.

Shiroma 35:12

The Next Act is executive produced by Jaswinder Blackwell-Pal, Shiroma Silva and Rukhsana Ahmad. It is edited and assistant produced by Kavita Kukar and Malia Haider. Our research assistant is Carrie Luce and the technical producer is Matthew Kowalczuk. Our designer is Arjun Mahadevan. It is funded and supported by the Center for Public Engagement and the Department of Drama at Queen Mary University of London. You can follow up online at www.thenextact.co.uk.