Episode 1: Mohamed-Zain Dada

Transcript

Shiroma 0:06

Welcome to The Next Act: British South Asian Playwrights, a new series focusing on the voices shaping the future of British South Asian theatre. Each episode centres on a conversation with a single playwright examining their creative processes and the political, personal and artistic forces that drive and inform their work, bringing about lively, thought provoking dialogs that explore the zeitgeist in this theatre landscape. I'm Shiroma Silva. I'm a film director, a radio producer and broadcast journalist. With me is Rukhsana Ahmad.

Rukhsana 0:38

I'm a writer, playwright and translator. I'm also the founder of Kali Theatre Company and Sadaa.

Shiroma 0:45

and Jaswinder Blackwell Pal.

Jaswinder 0:47

I'm a lecturer in Theatre and Performance studies at Queen Mary University of London.

Shiroma 0:51

Today, we're joined by our first guest, Mohamed-Zain Dada, who's a playwright, screenwriter and cultural producer. His debut play, blue mist of 2023. Is about three British Muslim men, jihad, Rashid and Asif and the shisha lounge that acts as their safe place. Jihad is an aspiring journalist who wins a competition to produce a documentary, but he ends up having to navigate the tensions between his own aspirations and the community he wants to give voice to the play premiered at the Royal Court Theatre and won critical praise and also an Olivier Ward nomination. His newest play is speed, and his showing at the bush theatre until May 17, 2025. It takes on the chaotic tale of a nurse, a delivery driver and an entrepreneur, who are all brought together at a speed awareness course that unfolds into a group therapy session as everyone in the room is confronted with the root causes of their anger.

Zain, welcome. Thank you. Let's dive straight in. Shall we tell us about how you found your voice as a writer, as an author? What was your root in?

Zain 2:00

So the root in for me was actually poetry. I discovered Benjamin Zephaniah as a writer - that really the memory I have of someone, a writer who, you know, may God rest his soul, of someone who spoke with a voice that was righteous in its fury, I guess, spoke to contemporary issues of politics in ways that didn't feel that felt like completely uncompromising, and even that it was like 14/15, I was really enamoured by his voice, and particularly Too Black Too Strong, was the anthology. And so I attempted my own version of that kind of poetry. So I actually set up a blog spot called - quite cringe now on reflection. But it's called Optimistc Revolutionary dot blog spot. It was like a very cringe worthy attempt at, like, writing, I guess you would call it, like political, politicized poetry, or like, yeah. So that was like the initial sort of writing, lots of poetry, being inspired by poets.

I watched a lot of YouTube clips of Def Jam poetry at the time. Was really enamoured by the spoken word poetry scene, and then also, like writers like Faiz Ahmad Faiz and Agha Shahid Ali, just discovered that through sort of family roots and being really interested in that, to be honest, poetry was the main thing for a long time, and it wasn't sort of a thing. I thought was a career path or anything, and so fast forwarding to plays, I think that only really came through working at the Bush Theatre in my early 20s as a community intern and watching new writing plays and seeing playwrights like Arinza Kene, Vinay Patel, Winston, Pinnock, they all had their plays on at the same time while I was working there, which I didn't realize how lucky I was to get access to that.

And then I kind of was really enamoured by by theatre and new writing in particular. And by that point, I was working full time, just started at the Greater London Authority. So I had no plans, necessarily, to write for theatre at that point, but I got into the introduction to playwriting course at the Royal Court because the artistic director of Bucha Theatre, Madani Yunus, encouraged me to submit a scene because I'd expressed interest in it. And at the same time, I applied for Soho Theatre Writers Lab. Got into both, and that's where I developed Blue Mist over a three year period.

Shiroma 4:18

And do you think you took anything from poetry into theatre, those seeds that were planted in your head from poetry, did they transfer over?

Zain 4:27

Yeah, definitely, definitely, I can't. I mean, I'm not sure how. I think definitely the kind of like, sense of a rhythm of a poem, and the sense of like, I guess, the rhythm of dialog and like, it's that thing of like, it's a bit of a cringe term now, but 10,000 hours being put in, I felt like I put in that 10,000 hours of like studying, understanding, reading poetry, just as a sense of joy, because I used to at that point as well. So 1718, was part of a youth poetry collective, so that involved weekly meetups where we'd actually discuss different poets like.

One week we'd discuss Linton Kwesi Johnson, another week, it would be like Suheir Hammad, so like very contemporary writers, in the context of analyzing the work to inform our own writing, and then we perform that work as a group of young people, I feel like all of that did filter into how I write for theatre and my work as a playwright, but it's hard to pinpoint how, but I think it's definitely influences how I write and how I think about writing.

Jaswinder 5:23

I think it really comes across in your dialog as well, which I think is one of the, you know, really exciting things about your writing, that dialog feels really like alive and kind of musical in a way, in how your character speaks of the poetry connection makes a lot of sense. I wanted to ask you a bit more about Blue Mist, so your play that was at the Royal Court, as you've just talked about. So I read another interview that you interview that you did where you said that one of the things that influenced you writing that play was reading Made in England by Parv Bancil. And I was really interested by that, because I only came across that play recently because Tara Theatre did a reading of it, and I think it's not that well known, right? And to see you kind of reference that play and that writer who, in a way, was kind of opening doors for British, Asian writers. You know, many decades ago, I wondered if you could speak to that play and the kind of influence of pal's writing, but also other playwrights who might have kind of inspired you.

Zain 6:17

Yeah, I came across Parv's work because whilst I was at the Bush Theatre, I had a meeting withMadani Younis, who was artistic director. Like I said, he he gave me an important piece of advice around understanding and reading people who've come before you, and kind of getting a sense of what that canon is, and developing your own sense of taste and voice, which is, sounds like obvious advice, but at the time, I was like, This is really helpful. And he referenced, he cited, Parv. Then he sent me a link to an anthology where Parvs play is published in, and it was like Black and Asian playwrights who've written work.

And I think reading that, I was amazed that at that the time he wrote in, I guess maybe there's a particular sense of how you should write for theatre as a South Asian person, and who, I don't know how to phrase this, but there's a sense of Parv's voice. Maybe it's a better way talking about Parv's voice particularly felt like very distinct and unique to actually the issues that felt really current to me. There's a line on Wikipedia which really sums up using cultural identity and trading it for success. And the play actually looks at a journalist who, you know, it looks at music culture. And I think that the idea of a journalist kind of sitting on the inside and being on the outside and being part having a South Asian identity, it interrogated a lot of issues that felt just really exciting to me, and it maybe planted a seed for Blue Mist, because a lot of the themes in Blue Mist relate to the themes of Made in England.

So that was really exciting to encounter as well. I think what's really important actually with Parv's work, and more broadly, other South Asian playwrights, is that we have access, through an archive, to that canon. And I hope that work happens, because I know that the National Theatre, yeah, in a place like the National Theatre, if that was to be a thing where we could access an archive, where then it's easy for us to access past work or someone else's work, people that maybe I haven't read, that people shared share with me, rather than relying on informal networks, it's actually available in A centralized place. And then in terms of other playwrights, I, after that advice, I just started trying to read as many plays as possible. And I read a lot of ones that I didn't enjoy, and then some that I really loved. And the ones that I loved were the likes of Dennis Kelly, Boys and Girls, Martin McDonagh, Hangman, Lucy Prebble's, Enron.

Jaswinder 8:43

That point that you make about the kind of canon, and whether, like, emerging British, South Asian writers and artists have access to our own kind of canon, is like a really, really interesting point, and Blue Mist is a kind of testament to how that canon can then inspire your own writing. I think so many writers just don't have access to those plays, or don't have access to that kind of history?

Zain 9:03

Yes, totally. And it shouldn't be an accidental I happen to be working at the Bush Theatre at that time where someone who is very generous and redistributive in terms of how they approach the industry decides to share that with me by chance. It should be just accessible in a centralized place, that is the job of institutions.

Shiroma 9:23

Can I ask about your own background and how that's played into your writings? I mean, Blue Mist, obviously, was about navigating the 21st century, but being true to your own roots as well. You know, that kind of dilemma. In a way Speed wasn't absolutely - nothing to do with anything Asian. In in some ways. How does your own background feed into that?

Zain 9:50

Um, do you mean, when by background? Do you mean, like, what would you mean? Do you mean, like, I've grown up, or sort of influences growing up?

Shiroma 9:58

Your cultural background?

Zain 10:00

My so my dad is born in Uganda, originally from Gujarat, came to England after Idi Amin's expulsion, and my mom was from Pakistan. So I grew up, I guess, in a very big family background. My dad had, has nine siblings. Many passed away now, but nine siblings and that, therefore, like many cousins. I think what was helpful was like across, like, those cultural backgrounds and class background, you kind of you unknowingly, you're exposed to so many and even regionally, like a lot of my family members are, across across England. So I think you end up being exposed to a lot of different influences.

I was the youngest out of all that. My dad's the second youngest, and I was one of the youngest out of my four, no, second youngest that my four siblings at all. No, I don't want to forget my little brothers. But the point is, I think I end up being a bit of a sponge when it came to observing many family dynamics, community distant, more distant community dynamics and that you become a bit of a sponge before you. Yeah, and then even amongst my friends circle, interestingly, when they saw Blue Mist, I think one of my closest friends was like, I'm going to send you a legal letter to sue you as a joke, but because he used to co run a gym called Graftism, and there's a gym reference in there called Henchism. So there's a lot of obviously, and the other friends who saw it, close friends who saw it, were saying, didn't know you were like, wait, you're always listening. It was a really interesting kind of reflection back, because they were like, obviously, always just listening to stuff.

We said, I'm like, well, not sort of eavesdropping, but I guess it's a habit as a child to just be a bit of aquiet I was just a very quiet, nerdy child that was a bit of a sponge, absorbing those influences and characters, absorbing, you know, characters in your family, the different dynamics, and sort of taking all in. And I guess maybe that influences things that you end up writing. I guess that freaks people out a little bit, though, when they find out, yes, yeah, it scares people a little bit, but then they come to accept it out, yeah.

Shiroma 12:05

And what about speed in terms of background and stuff?

Zain 12:09

Yeah, definitely. I think there's, I think I was really interested in, I guess, the premise of Speed, because it was about bringing regional drivers from across the country, and we'd work that logic of the play out ourselves, with the director, the dramaturg. It felt like an exciting opportunity to bring together to understand the distinctions between South Asian communities, that there isn't homogeneity. There are so many vast differences, which I hope you know, from cultural and ethnic background to class and to regional.

And we - it was nice to sort of excavate that and place different characters from different parts of the country. And it felt like as long as we could understand that logic in the setup of the world and the course these aggressive drivers are being brought together, and this is their last chance saloon, then that felt like an exciting opportunity with speed to sort of explore those regional differences, as opposed to being, despite being set in Birmingham, it's not necessarily a story about Birmingham. It's about, I guess, drawing from their own specific frustrations as part of that is originally where they're from as well.

Shiroma 13:15

I was gonna say the characters could be from almost any other culture too.

Zain 13:19

Yes, totally, totally. There's an element, yeah, definitely, there's an element of, like, you know, it's not just about culture and race. There's so many things these characters experience that many other communities experience. Harleen will have things in common with a white working class nurse. Do you know what I mean? And then there are elements within that that are specific to culture and race, of course, but that's, I think, partly, what I was hoping for. It's like there are so many commonalities. And I think that's a bridge for solidarity as well. Hopefully.

Rukhsana 13:49

It's fascinating to see your commitment to theatre, though, and why theatre though, in a world when everybody's consuming their stuff from all over the place?

Zain 14:00

Yeah, you know, you know, what was it? I guess it's a bit of a longer winded way of getting into this. But I was in. I was involved. I used to be involved in, like, making zines, which is, if you don't know, it's like, zine culture is sort of like DIY. People used to sort of use a photocopier machine in the 50s and be able to create their own self published magazines. And a lot of it was like very counter cultural tied into, like punk movements. And then in my 20s, we set up, me and few friends set up a zine called Khidr collective, named after Khidr in the Quran story of Khidr and Moses. He was a guide for Moses. So we were interested in setting up something that platformed Muslim voices and artists, and it was a printed, physical material copy that we decided to make. And one of the reasons we made it was because we felt that there was a sort of a certain sense of censorship around Muslim voice, at the time. It still is, but at the time was just sort of in its iteration of what was described as non violent extremist thinking.

There were reports around home office funded magazines, so we felt like, let's create something autonomous. And to your question, what felt really lovely was the materiality and having something physical to exchange with people. So I've always been interested in the idea of kind of, not necessarily always filtering your connections with others through the internet. And I feel like that's more heightened now with how we engage with one another on the internet and how atomized people are. And I think what I loved about being in the Bush, when I watched Vinay Patel, WinstonPinnock or Arinze Kene and other playwrights, was like, how live the experience of theatre is. There's nothing like it in terms of a sensory experience, in terms of, yeah, just at its best, it takes you somewhere else.

And I think with TV and film, especially in streaming now, as much as there's a wide, wider scope of reaching more, like millions of people through those mediums that goes well. I don't think there's anything quite like theatre and bringing people into that space. The beautiful things are so historical across cultures, collectively people gathering and hearing storytelling. Yeah, that just feels quite special and unique completely makes sense to me.

Jaswinder 16:22

I think that thing you say about the kind of sensory nature of theatre really comes through in the plays as well. So Blue Mist, you play with scenography in a certain way in that script, with the mist itself and how it operates, but also in Speed. When we went to see it, I jumped out of my seat at the start, you know. So there's kind of interesting things there. And there's also a slightly kind of dark dramaturgy, or like a dark style emerging there. I wonder if you could say a little bit about that. I mean, watching Speed and Blue Mist, there's almost kind of inflections of horror, I feel like, in your style. And I was wondering if you could talk about that a bit.

Zain 16:56

I feel like it's really worked with that, because I think Milli Bhatia, who's directed both, who's like, brilliant, incredible what she does, and she's directed plays like King Troll by Sonalia Bhattaharyya, and also Seven Methods of killing Kylie Jenner and Baghdaddy. And so, I guess with the text, from my perspective, it's like Blue Mist. I was really interested of the mist in the early drafts functioning that or she is your flavor of mist as something which is an imaginary space for Jihad felt really, it just felt like a fun way of exploring his psyche and how it's being limited by that brief. It really, I have to like, say that Milli, how she approaches taking the text to production is is to really push up those inflections of horror through how she works with a line designer and a composer.

And it's always very collaborative. She's an incredibly collaborative person, but she has also a very specific vision. And I feel like with Speed, it's a similar thing where the PTSD sequences and speed were labeled in the text as the Johari Window, which is a sort of psychological framework to look at the self. And we use the Johari Window as like the window into his psyche as well, in a similar way. And I think I had one thing written in the text, and I think Milli really pushed at the the more, yeah, the kind of horror inflections.

It's so lovely to have that thing where it feels like quite a genre, bendy this, I guess then combining those two things feels quite unique to people and audiences, because it's quite random to have, yeah, I guess something very comedic, and then at the same time have, like you're jumping on your seat, yeah, it's very funny, but you don't quite know.

Jaswinder 18:47

I felt very unsettled by the play, you know, you don't quite know where it's gonna go or how dystopian or strange or terrifying it might get.

Zain 18:56

She'd be really happy to hear that.

Shiroma 18:58

Is the bending of genre, something you're increasingly getting into?

Zain 19:02

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think, I think it, this is all a very live reflection, because I'm still learning. But I think about, like, like I mentioned Hangmen by Martin McDonough, and I think there's, like, something really interesting about. So I think, like in Blue Mist was like, okay, conversational comedy. And then you stretch yourself as a writer and you're like, okay, there are really multifaceted ways of looking at comedy in really dark moments.

And I watched this monologue, and I feel bad because I can't, I can't remember the writer, but it's a Gazan writer who talked about how, and, you know, it's quite a dark story of a bomb exploding at a neighbor's house. And this is from 2014, that this writer had been writing this monolog, and it was performed at an event called Gaza monologues, and a bomb had exploded at a next door neighbor's house. And it blew out all the windows of their neighbors. And the writer, the sort of mom and the dad, mom, dad and daughter are, like, assessing the damage to their their house, and the first thing the dad does is light a cigarette, and his daughter says, like, checks, everyone's okay. Everyone's fine. Thankfully. In the monologue, the dad comments that one of the windows needed replacing anyway. And it was like, quite like, it was incredibly dark humor. But I was like, comedy does sit and I feel like it just sits under everything in that, if that's the most horrific of circumstances, and comedy sat underneath that. I was like, that's something really interesting to explore.

Shiroma 20:38

That's people's way of coping as well.

Zain 20:39

Exactly coping mechanism. Yeah.

Rukhsana 20:42

Tell me about, tell me about, what are the images that get you, that you think focus on the meaning of the play that you use as symbols, and how do you arrive with them?

Zain 20:53

I feel like it's a really collaborative again, like a really collaborative conversation. So with Speed, because it was written within six months. It was a very - it was useful to have a shorthand with Milli. I wrote 50 pages initially, and that was the basis of programming. So it's like, okay, what have we got here? I was getting set deadlines, but also it was a case of looking at everything from memes to like, sort of contemporary culture, and drawing a mood board together Milli put together of references.

And what's amazing is those references kept building were layered. As soon as Tomas Palmer came on, as the stage designer came on, he added images, and then I would look at those images, add my own images. And then movement director Theo Bailey joined, and he added his own images. So it was like a very what I think Milli facilitates, is a very collaborative process. So the image that came to mind for this play was like the meme of a mask where someone is angry underneath the mask. I don't know if you're familiar with it, got a straight face, yeah?

Jaswinder 21:55

Like crying underneath it, yeah?

Zain 21:58

So that, yeah, that was one of the images. And there were so many in the rehearsal room. What's really great is the actors bring their own images. We stuck it up on the walls.

Jaswinder 22:06

And you have the stress balls as well in Speed, which I feel like are doing a lot of a lot of interesting work in relation to the characters and their dynamics.

Zain 22:14

Totally. And that, again, that comes through, like it's so brilliant - the reason I said the process is really fun is because everyone is really looking at attention to detail to the nth degree, and also then taking those images and bringing it to life in the rehearsal room. So it feels really fun because we're sort of playing around with stress balls. What's really lovely about rehearsal process is like you make discoveries in the room, and I can respond to them as a writer, but then also, stage designer Tomas can respond to things in the room as well.

Jaswinder 22:48

Do you think you tend towards or like that, almost kind of like devised theatre approach, as opposed to you going off writing your script, submitting it, the director and the actors move forward with with working on it - sounds like Speed was a slightly different process for you. Has that? Do you think that will change the way you write in the future?

Zain 23:06

To be honest with you, the initial months were stressful because it was like deadline, deadline deadline, like, whereas I think I'd prefer to - it's not about the timeline, but I do, I think I probably do like to nail things a little bit earlier than what I done in this process, and I'm really proud of what we've made. Not that it's an extreme thing to devise work, but I wouldn't be as far as devising work, it would be - I do just enjoy going off and thinking, because I think I'm quite a slow processor, like, in terms of just it takes me time. I'm not, I don't come to things quite quickly. I think it's like, in relative terms, I like to just sit with things.

Rukhsana 23:42

That's a very writerly approach, isn't it? Your reflective, aren't you. You reflect on everything. That's why you process more slowly.

Zain 23:49

Yeah, exactly.

Rukhsana 23:50

That's logical.

Zain 23:51

Yeah, totally.

Shiroma 23:52

And then how much of a change is there that then comes about after that process in terms of the text?

Zain 23:59

Yeah, I think it's massive. I think at the same time, I love to go away and write the draft. I need to write the vomit draft. And then I've got people who are - I'm willing to be vulnerable with with that draft, because it's like they're not gonna - they know it's a journey, because I just am the type of person that first draft is never gonna - it's gonna be, it's quite a painful thing. Of this is going to be many, many drafts, unfortunately, and I've just got to accept it. But what I really love working closely with the dramaturg I think that I trust and that for me, feels like a really important relationship when I'm writing. And I think I've heard that other people have had not great dramaturgical relationships. Sometimes I think I got lucky at the Royal Court, where I work closely with Gurnesha Bola, who really helped finesse and worked very closely with me to get it to the version that ended up on stage.

Shiroma 24:49

But is there a point at which, or maybe at the very start, where you've got to think, yeah, I've got something here, and that's what, that's the basis?

Zain 24:59

Yeah, totally. Really, I think that for me is, like, the kind of like I do like to have a slow, reflective process where I know what I'm doing. I mean, that's where I know that's the thing, and this is the thing I'm looking at. And I think if I didn't have that anchor, I'd be in disarray a little bit about what I'm trying to do. So I think it's, it's helpful for me to be anchored in terms of the direction of travel, for the text.

Jaswinder 25:21

What's your starting point when you're devising a play, writing a play for the first time? Is it the story? Is it the characters? Is it a question? What tends to be the base material that sets you going?

Zain 25:33

It really varies. So like, I think, with Blue Mist, it was, it was a really conversational bit of dialog between three characters set in a shisha lounge.

Jaswinder 25:44

So, so it was partly, so might be setting as well?

Zain 25:46

Yeah, it's partly, it's a bit of setting like a bit of like this feels like a really unique, distinct precinct in place and space and the characters that exist within it. And then partly, the joy of it for me is the characters. I listened to this podcast by Sally Rooney, which is, like, you could have really distinct, interesting characters, but it's also placing them within a specific specific moment. So, like there might be certain circumstances you can these characters, it'd be very boring and be no reason for people to watch what they said, whereas, I guess that same thing of a pressure cooker, cooker, and placing them within that. But it is yeah, setting, partly setting and partly thematic sits really underneath that, which is like with Blue Mist, it was looking at like, yeah, cultural currency and social currency, friendship and betrayal within a structure, how far you're willing to go to succeed. And with Speed, it was the theme of anger and rage in the context of a British thing, of British stoicism, felt like the thing that I was really interested in.

Shiroma 26:48

And I was going to ask you, what about anger? You know, how much of a driver is that?

Zain 26:54

In this play, specifically?

Shiroma 26:56

And generally, actually, as well?

Zain 26:58

Yeah, I feel like I really have been reading a lot about how to channel, how to - the purpose of writing at a time when things are quite - all sorts of things. Things are happening domestically and also in the context of, like, what's happening in Gaza and the genocide there as well, all those different things have come to mind in the last 12 months where I'm like, okay, what is the purpose of writing when you actually sit back, and why am I doing this? And then I'd be reading a lot about that. And I read, I read this book called Recognizing the Stranger by Isabella Hamad, and it's like a non fiction essay. It was an essay in the Paris Review, and then she published it into a little it's a tiny book, and she writes about how Hamad doesn't believe in novels as escapism or spaces of moral instruction. A novel is a question mark. She talks about recognition within that obviously the title is Recognizing the Stranger. I guess, how to process what you're feeling about things that are unfolding in the world, and how to channel that into your writing.

And what feels like, I guess, what I feel is like a violent denialism of what is happening, and then how you then process that and channel that into writing. It's like, if you're feeling collectively gas lit. How do you come to terms with that in the process of storytelling? And there is something quite humane. And from this is, like, from the reading, I'm doing, something quite humane about approaching it with a sense of, like, coming with real humanity for the characters you're trying to represent, providing a sense of catharsis to an audience, providing a sense of, like, a sense that we're not going we're not all going crazy. There are things happening unfolding that are infuriating and we are valid to sit within our age. And actually, this is a very unique set of circumstances where that rage does feel very valid. So I've been thinking a lot about that, in relation to writing.

Shiroma 28:59

And in relation to anger, there's politics as well. How, generally speaking, would you say politics are reflected in your in your work? Maybe it's peripheral in some of them.

Zain 29:10

Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's an argument that sometimes work that is so front footed in its politics can be didactic and that turns people off, but at the same time, I do think there's a place for that work as well, like of course there is, and that's really valid. I think what interests me as a writer is to approach it with the view that the personal is the political, and that politics just sits underneath all our social relations and how we interact with one another, and like those things really sit between dynamics between people. And I guess when you observe those things, you can also take it into your writing and into the worlds that you create, which is like, yeah, those those dynamics I think exist. I think it's just undoubtedly going to be there in the writing, because, yeah.

Shiroma 29:58

But then also it can work the other way that your writing can potentially change your politics and your outlook on your characters. Tell us about any of that?

Zain 30:08

Yeah, totally. There's a thought I have around this, I guess, which is not fully fleshed out, because I'm still thinking about it. But I think there's a thing about courage and bravery when it comes to writing, because we touched on it earlier, which is like, if you are writing things that, hopefully, when you attempt to write, you're trying to be truthful. Those truthful things aren't necessarily going to brush alongside the rest of society nicely. You know, there might be some pushback to what might be particular norms. And I think, as a sort of live reflection, think it's increasingly like actually, if you want to be a really truthful writer, you do have to write things that might be uncomfortable, however that looks whatever, however that looks like.

So yeah, that question made me really reflect on it. And I thought, I think that it is a bit of a live reflection of like, hopefully, as you grow as a writer, you become braver. But although I know that's not always the case, when you see the trajectory, right, it seems like yeah, doesn't necessarily correlate, but I think that's something that is deeply connected to you personally, and how you approach life, and how you view things, how you view the world.

Jaswinder 31:17

It's also about political commitment, right? And what those principles and commitments are that you start out with?

Zain 31:22

Yes, yeah.

Jaswinder 31:23

Where they take you? I wanted to go on that question of politics all the way back to something you said about Speed. And you were talking about how the characters also reflect these different kind of class positions. And I think that kind of class anxiety, even amongst the kind of British Asian community, is also there in Blue Mist, right? There's a, there's a kind of like upward mobility, somebody being educated and going into journalism, versus the people that are left behind. So I think those kind of class dynamics are at play in all of your work. I was wondering if you could say a bit more about that, because you are exploring racism, both the kind of internalized racism in both plays, as well as the kind of external forces of racism and racist structures, but those class interplays are really at work as well.

Zain 32:08

Definitely, absolutely, I guess it goes back to that point of there is no like homogeneity, isn't a thing. Like those distinctions and dynamics are so unique. I mean, you look at one particular community, and you can have any particular community in terms of ethnic background, cultural background, and there will be so many different distinctions in terms of class, and those will be so multifaceted and complicated, you have to be really discerning not to flatten experiences of people just because they Share an ethnic background. And I think what really interested me, both in Blue Mist and in Speed, was looking at aspiration versus class dynamic, the thing of, like, certain characters not even viewing their themselves as working class, but they're seeking out anyone who's who's sort of made it in some way as, like, this aspirational ideal, and then yeah, and then the nuances of it. So I feel like it's, it feels really important to to any writing to alongside class and race and other dynamics, is to, like, explore every single intersection.

Jaswinder 33:14

Do you think it's particularly difficult for writers coming from any kind of minority background, but specifically for South Asian writers, as you say, that kind of pressure, I guess, to flatten, to speak for the whole, to kind of erase those differences. Do you think that that's a pressure that writers feel, or is it kind of harder to, I guess, explore those kind of differences? If you're writing for kind of big theatre institutions or an audience which is not necessarily the audience of the characters in your play, is there a pressure to kind of flatten those differences, to make the stories more legible to a white audience?

Zain 33:49

Yeah, totally. I don't know the answer, where the writers are, like conscious or unconsciously doing it, but I think maybe there's a point, and maybe it's still happening, where in the dynamics of what is getting programmed and commissioned, if a programming team don't understand those nuances and distinctions you're making between characters, that work might not even see the light of day. And then the work that is programmed and commissioned, maybe it is put on and it does feel like you're watching it and other people are watching it, and you're thinking, I'm having a very different experience to other people, because this doesn't feel very truthful to what I've seen or experienced. It's not reflected back at you.

But yes, I do. I do think maybe through programming pressures. And then there is a question about programming within smaller off West End subsidized theatres versus then, if you're trying to actually get your work on the biggest stages, how will those distinctions be respected? I guess it's not - I haven't come to a conclusion, but I do think hopefully things improve as more work gets put on that doesn't flatten those differences. And you are seeing it. I think you are seeing it in the writers that you're interviewing from such differing perspectives, both regionally, class wise, background, like it's, I think it's amazing.

Shiroma 35:11

But would you say you've had to flatten characters in any way, or writers have to flatten characters in any way in order to get those you know, big audiences, as it were?

Zain 35:21

I've never felt in it. So far, I've not felt like I needed to. I felt very liberated because the people in the buildings that I worked with, the Royal Court at the time were really supportive in terms of - because it was changing leadership at that time, it was really, there was a huge amount of support around just writing in the most liberated sense of it. So that I didn't receive one single note from them, which was like, this is not very - this is not going to make sense. There was nothing that touched on that, which was really reassuring. With The Bush, in a similar way, it wasn't that either. So I haven't yet had to experience that, but I think, yeah, I guess in the past, I'm trying to think of things that have become mainstream and massive with those differences being flattened, does feel like a - I think you probably see it more on TV and film, and it's like, okay, that does not speak to me at all, especially in, you know, things that feature South Asian characters as like, proxies or just like, as tokens. They're not three dimensional. They're not they just do what, I mean, they're just kind of like, they're just there to exist.

Shiroma 36:23

So is theatre, in a way, offering a way forward that other genres are perhaps failing in?

Zain 36:30

Yeah, maybe, I mean, also, I mean, the thing is, it's complicated, but I feel like also, theatre is in such a financial state. But I think what's a really beautiful thing is that we have an all South Asian cast in a theatre in West London. That's, you know, people are responding to in a really amazing way. And there are other shows similarly, that have diverse and there's not a second thought of the necessarily, maybe commercial pressures of, we can't have this many South Asians because x, y, z, and it's not right. Obviously people wouldn't come out and say that, but there's maybe a stone walling that happens in other contexts. So it's an interesting thing. I think there is an opportunity in subsidized theatre, and there has been for a long time. I think we just - I think we need to be careful, to fight, to still maintain that, because I think there are some stats around fewer plays being put on subsidized theatres now because of post COVID effect.

So I think we still have to really fight to retain that. We're now actually, interestingly, trying to tour Blue Mist, and pending Arts Council funding, it will hopefully happen. We've had really exciting responses from venues, and one venue in particular, in a very South Asian dominated city, came back and said they don't believe there's an audience for it. And I thought that was really interesting. And it was like, I have cousins in that city. And I thought - not that my cousins will fill it out but, but they, there's, there is an audience there. And they, they were like, we'll give it a rehearsal room for one night. And I was like, this is like a mid scale Olivier nominated show. Give it the respect it deserves. Like a whole team have spent ages putting this together. So it's still interesting. I think still things level within even subsidized theatre, we still have to prove...

Jaswinder 38:07

So maybe those theatres aren't doing the work to cultivate those audiences. It's not that those audiences aren't out there. It's the theatres aren't taking that step to go to them?

Zain 38:15

Totally.

Shiroma 38:16

Just to let you know, I had a phone changed on Saturday, and I was chatting to the man. I told him what I'd been doing, and I told him to go and Speed because I said, how good it was. Hopefully you've got somebody from Epsom coming to The Bush.

Zain 38:30

Excellent. Another ticket sold.

Shiroma 38:32

Yeah, about Speed. We've touched on this already, about the complexity of the characters, the personal themes. You know, it's, it's about rage, about keeping things hidden. It's about regret, and a whole load of very, very human emotions, really, and and lots of self loathing and wonderful surprises, of course. But how, how do all those things which, which are so commonplace in every day, all of us human beings. How does that play into your sort of wider political concerns?

Zain 39:06

I think it's that thing of, like, those things build up into an implosion, like, they kind of like, I guess, yeah, it comes back to that point around the personal being political and like, I think the thing of, like, interrogating for yourself, what are people around you discussing outside of maybe your bubble? It's like, I think, what does the everyday look like? Which I think in some ways, I'm not a full time writer. I work still part time, and I think actually, maybe it's helpful to operate in a space where you're interacting with people that are not just within a particular industry.

Maybe it's a point of reflection for me, just not being too you have to be careful not to be too aloof and outside of things, because I think that can affect how you write about the world and write about things, yeah, but it is really interrogating me every day, and what that looks like for people. Outside of, just like, very particular topics or themes. It's like, yeah, people are concerned. Like the thing about small plates, and they think about the - like it's just even having conversations with my little cousin. There's all sorts of things that go into it, and just sort of interrogating what speaks to people on the everyday.

Rukhsana 40:17

Thank you. I was going to ask you about, actually, we've talked quite a lot about writing itself, but what about what about you and how you feel about things? So I really want to ask you how you feel about things that are secret, if you like, from the audience to guess about you. This is about the writing process itself? Yes, is there something that is quite secret and personal to you>

Zain 40:42

In the process? I guess, like, there maybe is a perception that it's quite - back to your point around is it solitary - writing as a solitary act? It definitely is a point where I'm like, have to get out the first vomit draft and push myself to do it. But I do find, I do have like, and this is maybe helpful for other writers, but people probably do this already, which is to have a community of one or two people that you really trust to read those drafts. Yeah, two or three trusted people that I will share work with, because I know they will give me - they know exactly the kind of headline thoughts that sometimes, if you share that draft to someone who's not used to giving the notes that you want, they'll give something. They'll go into the minutiae, and that's not what you need for a first draft. Whereas there are people that I think have a really inherent sense of how to give dramaturgical insight and like feedback, and I just use those two or three people, I kind of draw on their expertise and as friends and sort of colleagues, and that really helps to inform.

Shiroma 41:46

There was just one thing about your own identity, how that has possibly changed as a result of our as a result of your writing?

Zain 41:53

Yeah, what's interesting about that is, like the identity of a writer, I think is interesting is like the label of the writer is an interesting one. And again, these are such half baked reflections. It's obviously a really beautiful thing to share something that's been in your head for so long. And it's quite a cathartic thing. I like. I think it's a really lovely full circle thing, actually, where you're with poetry and spoken word. When I used to perform that as a sort of 17/18, year old, there was a lovely cyclical thing where you're directly sharing with an audience, and you feel a sense of validation that the themes and topics and feelings you're exploring feel relevant to other people. And I think with theatre, it's like even more of a heightened thing, because this big audience that are sort of responding to, or like, a very engaged audience that is responding to the work, and that feels like, I guess, what it's done is, like, generated such an excitement about writing more and like, and also then just being very grounded about that.

Ta-Nehesi Coates, the writer, went to a Q and A recently where he was like, no one is owed an audience. You're not owed an audience at all. And I think I really try and internalize that now at start of a process. It's like you have to earn people coming to see something. So I think those things have shaped my identity in a sense of like really feeling a sense that you have to earn the audience that you write what you want. Absolutely, that's important if you're liberated to write what you want, but a certain point, think about that thing of sort of earning an audience and sort of making people feel like it's worth them leaving their house to come and see something because you've got so many reasons not to leave your house. I am such a homebody. I'm, in many instances have no reason to leave home. I'm just like, very relaxed to have camara tea, very boring person. But if there's something that really makes me want to leave my house to see something, I know that it's I try and take that same energy into writing.

Shiroma 43:50

So you've grown as a person, would you say?

Zain 43:52

Yeah, definitely, definitely, massively, in terms of, terms of how I think about things, how I think about the world.

Rukhsana 44:00

Now, mine is an easier one, in a sense. Is it a favorite play of yours? Out of the lot that you've written?

Zain 44:07

I think Blue Mist, I will always have a very close attachment to it, because I became such close friends with everyone in the process. So one of the actors, and I'm close with all of them, Arian Nik, Omar Bynon and Salman Akhtar. There are three in there in the play, but so many beautiful things have sprout from that, like other collaborations with the three of them, with obviously ongoing collaboration with Milli, a continued sort of sharing of work with the two dramaturgs who worked on it, we all sort of formed a very close bond, so it's almost a reflection on the process, as opposed to the play itself. It felt like a very special time to sort of make that work together, and it felt that felt really special. I think I'm in time, so I'd say, yeah, that probably Blue Mist.

Rukhsana 44:59

Okay, wonderful. Would you like to quote something from Blue Mist, a line or something? Do you like to read to us?

Jaswinder 45:05

A line that you're particularly proud of, or a moment in that play?

Rukhsana 45:08

Or something that you know people enjoyed?

Shiroma 45:11

Yeah, you know what? The one that sticks out is the dating. There's a moment where the characterAsif, who's single, is talking about dating, and Orion's character, Arash asks if she got any hobbies. And the way, Salman Akhtar, who delivered the line, delivers, he delivered it with such like - it was like an actor taking a line, which the line was, 'she likes protesting n that' and he did the kind of hand gesture. And it's like the, I think it really touched the nerve of the audience being like, they people really, that really spoke to people that the woman he was dating her hobby was protesting. And I think that just always stuck out with me. It's one that I remember. Yeah, I think that one.

Shiroma 45:59

Engineered a laugh.

Zain 46:01

Yeah. Engineered a laugh. Yeah, again, it's amazing how actors can take something and like, really he did the kind of full hand, just like he just really nailed it.

Rukhsana 46:10

Thank you so much for that.

Shiroma 46:13

Zain, thank you very, very much for joining us and sharing your insights. It's been great.

Zain 46:17

Thanks for having me.

Rukhsana 46:19

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Shiroma 46:24

The Next Act is executive produced by Jaswinder Blackwell-Pal, Shiroma Silva and Rukhsana Ahmad. It is edited and assistant produced by Kavita Kukar and Malia Haider. Our research assistant is Carrie Luce and the technical producer is Matthew Kowalczuk. Our designer is Arjun Mahadevan. It is funded and supported by the Centre for Public Engagement and the Department of drama at Queen Mary University of London. You can follow up online at www.thenextact.co.uk.

Mohamed-Zain
Dada

Bio

More episodes

Transcript

Mohamed-Zain Dada

Bio

More episodes

Transcript

Follow us

Mohamed-Zain
Dada