Neil
D'Souza

Shiroma 13:18

Talk of authenticity, can I ask, how did you find your voice?

Neil 13:22

As a writer or as an actor?

Shiroma 13:24

Well, both. Primarily as a writer?

Neil 13:27

I think the truth about that is that, you know, I would struggle to even now know what my voice is, but I would say that I'm a lot more confident as a writer now than I was when I first started. And I think those early plays and the way through is a way of defining what your voice is and what you're good at. I mean, a lot of my natural rhythms are comic. I see the world in a comic way, and I'm not comparing myself to Chekhov, but in the same way that he would say that all of his plays are comedies, you wouldn't necessarily believe that if you saw some productions, but I kind of feel the same. I feel that within comedy you can have great tragedy and you can have great desperation and you can have great moments of victory. But I'd say there's a kind of comic voice which has come through, which is the way I see the world. However, I do think any advice I would, you know, give is just keep writing. Because, you know, those first plays and I read them now I think, My God, it's so overwritten. Unless you overwrite it, unless you do it, you're not going to know, you know, you can't sit there and just write the most amazing play. You have to get to the point where you've done that through practice and through having your work on.

Rukhsana 14:42

I wanted to ask you a question about characters in yours dramas. You often hear writers saying, Oh, the character wanted to do this and the character wanted to do that. Have you ever had a surreal moment when you felt, Oh, this character is taking away my story?

Neil 14:54

Well, in Small Miracle, I do remember that the original way that play was supposed to go, was that the woman was supposed to die at the end, and this is also the reason why it got put on, was I suddenly thought, I've never seen a love story between people of that age. Suddenly that became a more attractive idea than her just dying. And, you know, the idea of survival, the idea of carrying on, you know. So I do remember that being a moment. And also, I suppose in Out of Season as well. I remember there was one particular scene where the young girl in it, Holly, basically comes in in scene two and is drunk. I'd written a scene, and I thought, it's not working, and we wrote the scene then and there. The character just spoke. It was like collaborative at that point, because that was during rehearsal, and it worked so well. It was so organic to the character. By that stage, you see.

Rukhsana 15:48

When you say the character just spoke, do you mean, the actor took on the role?

Neil 15:51

Well, it's interesting that, because that is probably the smallest, it's not a small character, but the smallest character in that play, because the character isn't in inverted commas, educated. And some actresses had an issue with that, but I absolutely loved that character. I think it's my favorite character in the play, even though it hasn't got loads and loads of dialogue. I just love the free spirited, in the moment, kind of thing that that character does, and the capacity for humor and depth and all kinds of things. Yeah.

Shiroma 16:23

Can I ask which of your characters in your works are brought about in a way by your own life experiences, your own sentiments?

Neil 16:33

Yeah, I think in every play, there's been an element of that. There's been a character that I have identified with. I think when I look at the three plays, there is a theme in all of them. It's weird. There is a theme, but it comes out in a weird way. And the theme is this thing of loneliness, actually, but not necessarily depression, and how we deal with that, you know, despair and loneliness, but how we deal with that in life, and I've seen that in all of the plays at some point that's come up.

Shiroma 17:06

But also, what about character traits?

Neil 17:09

Character traits? Oh, well, I mean, that's a difficult question. Actually. I suppose there's the writer in Small Miracle, and I was writing a play, and the writer is writing one. So there is something there which is autobiographical. I think maybe there is a character trait in all of them about a character trying to grow, trying to develop, trying to change, trying to reach something, you know, and then other characters around them either helping that or hindering that. And often a bully, character somewhere in the plays, they identify as the person stopping them.

Rukhsana 17:41

You know, there's all this thing about writing, that we discuss, but nobody ever discusses or talks about the invisible process inside.

Neil 17:49

Yeah, there is, I mean, yeah, just related to the last question. Actually. When I was writing that first play, I think I spent maybe six months in a library every single day, just writing and writing and writing and throwing most of it away, and it becomes very difficult. You know, writing is a process managing one's own creativity. And I do remember there came a point where I had to have a mantra to myself in order to continue. And the mantra was, sit down. Right? That was the mantra, just sit down. And it referred to me, but it also referred to my inner critic, who I pictured as somebody standing up over me, and I'd say, Just sit down. I wouldn't shout it. I'd just say, just sit down so I can write this, so I can get it out there. And that is something which, when the Guardian comes to review, or the Telegraph, which is Telegraph gave a very good review. But they don't see that. They don't see how much it takes to put a play out there. No, they have no idea. They just see the end result. But the bravery to actually commit stuff to paper and to say, this is what I think and feel, it's a very courageous thing to do.

Shiroma 17:55

I was going to say, I think surely the process is very courageous and also requires a lot of energy to keep going at it and to have the courage also to throw material away.

Neil 19:12

Oh, god, yeah. I mean, oh, sorry, that was the other thing when I was thinking about the invisible writing process and the throwing material away is I have developed this thing of writing longhand, and then computer, and I go in between. I go in between. Like some people, they only write longhand. And I sometimes go for days, pages and pages, and get through pads and notepads and throw out bits. Then I will put it into the computer. And in doing that, I will edit again, completely edit it again, so you kind of get another go, but this time, you're not having to sit there and think it. You're doing the copying, but while you're copying, you're actually writing. And then sometimes I'll go, enough of that, I just want to work on the computer. So there's a real relationship between computer and notepad, which is about thinking and refining. And working through one's own criticism.

Jaswinder 20:02

You just said something really interesting about kind of reviews and the kind of responsibility of a reviewer and and how they kind of respond. I found really interesting. I teach playwriting. I also teach cultural criticism to the students who are interested in arts journalism and that kind of relationship between what the writer is trying to do and the responsibility of a reviewer. I wonder if there have been reviews that you've received on your work that you have found useful, and also, you know what your advice is to writers in terms of dealing with their critics, dealing with criticism?

Neil 20:33

You have to in early plays have quite a Teflon coating, because a play is such a precious, tender thing. And the critics, some of them, you know, I look, I'm going to be honest, in my very first play, got one star in The Guardian, not even two stars, one star. My last one got four stars. So, I mean, I kind of came full circle. But The Telegraph, I mean, of all, gave it an amazing review, and The Guardian gave one star. And I still to this day, keep that review. I keep it because I think it nearly could have stopped me writing, because The Guardian is such an important paper for the theatre going community, they probably knocked off 30% of my box office right there. And Charles Spencer in The Telegraph and The Times were much more constructive. You know, The Telegraph. I'm not going to go into politics, but I'd probably align myself more with The Guardian, and then I would with The Telegraph, but he was much more constructive, and he gave it a very good review and said, it's, it's not a perfect play, but it's got huge promise. You know, I remember, I almost think he might have read her review and just thought that is, that's wrong, but I would just say that it's not wrong or right. I just think in those reviews, there was often a nugget and something really useful. That one in The guardian of all places was just just shooting it down, just rubbishing it. Obviously the person didn't like it. That is their choice. And then in the other plays that I've done, I think I've become more tough to them, and it's fine, and the reviews have generally got better. And I think nowadays, I'm maybe right or maybe wrong in saying this, I think people don't review in the same way. They don't have Nicholas de Jongs anymore. You know, the Nicholas de Jongs used to really go for things. When I was an actor. He never reviewed anything I'd written, but he used to be quite acid in his criticism of things, and nowadays, those reviewers just don't exist anymore. You'll see, you know, people are more nuanced about what they think.

Jaswinder 22:33

Yeah, which is so important, especially for an emerging writer or a new writer. I think you know, the point is really important. There is a responsibility there to think about what your review is doing when a writer is emerging, when they're putting work for the first time, and when a national publication like that, that's a big forum.

Neil 22:50

Yeah. And, you know, I would be a Guardian reader at that point in time as well, you know. So it was interesting to get that review, you know.

Shiroma 22:58

Have you since swapped swap papers?

Neil 23:00

No, I mean, I don't, I don't. I mean, interestingly, who reads papers anymore? But I didn't swap papers. I might still believe, but, I mean, I think that critic no longer, she does still write, but no longer. For The Guardian.

Shiroma 23:14

Talking of politics. Can I ask how do politics influence your work?

Neil 23:20

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, actually, and something I've learned about hugely recently by writing a play for Radio 4 just in November. I have my politics, but I have come to the belief that one should never be overt in one's politics in a play, one should let them happen, and they will happen without you trying. I've come to this belief that immediately you try, people feel lectured to, in this day and age where on Instagram and all the other social media, everybody has a view, I think immediately you start telling people what to think, a part of their brain turns off. When you let them think by watching your story, part of their brain turns on. And actually, that's a very difficult thing to do, even in Out of Season, I remember when we were all sat around the table, somebody said, of the character, Michael. Someone said, Oh, well, this is nearly Nigel Farage. One character was an Asian guy who was 50, who was a academic, whatever. They said, Oh, that's you, isn't it? And I said, No, it's a bit of me, but there's a bit of me, who's Michael as well, who really enjoyed writing his monologues. So I think the politics of something you should let happen through the story, rather than ever trying to put it in there.

Jaswinder 24:38

I'd wanted to ask about Out of Season, specifically in relation to the politics, actually, because I think it's quite an interesting example. It strikes me as actually quite a deeply political play, although in the subtle ways that you're talking about, you've got these characters dealing with kind of disillusion, maybe going back to those themes of loneliness that you talked about earlier as being really central to your writing, I think that's really strong. There's this kind of reckoning with, like, historical racism within the play as well, this kind of dealing with a legacy of pain and oppression that is unacknowledged, and I think that's where the kind of political element of that play is quite clear.

Neil 25:13

Yeah. I think I found that quite difficult to write, and I find it very difficult to act, because I'm not somebody who gets on my soapbox that often in life. I am a political person. I'll be honest, and I do have views. Having to play that character saying that was quite it's quite a violent encounter. It is a violent encounter. It was quite hard. And, you know, I thought, you know, I remember, there was an actor who came in and he read for the part because I wasn't going to do the part originally. And he said, don't write that. He said, Don't do that. Don't be a moaning like guy. Don't be a kind of moaning about racism. Everybody's moaning about racism. Or he said, Don't do that. And I'm glad I didn't listen to his advice. I suppose what it was was that there came a point in my life, you know, I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and, you know, I just experienced life. And there came a point when I looked back and I thought, Oh, my God, we were only in the country for 10-15, years, you know, when I was born, or less than that, when I was born. And so this notion of how things have changed and how that must have affected self esteem and relationships and everything is political. But I see the other side of it as well. And that is important. I think, you know, the Aristotelian thing of having the thesis and the antithesis and not necessarily being on either side. I see the other side where the person, Michael says, You've gone too far. You're going too far. Where does this stop? You know, where does this stop? You know, we were just mucking around. We were just friends. And so I see both sides that, you know, it is a political play, but it allowed the audience to decide, rather than me deciding.

Rukhsana 25:22

Plays often have, you know, very uncomfortable truths in them. Plays essentially have the conflict. So that's why you need the two sides. Yes, but what are the most uncomfortable truths that you might have confronted in plays? What is the truth that you might have confronted and resolved through writing a play?

Neil 27:12

That's a difficult one. I do think that playwriting is finally very healing, in a way, but it's very bad for your back. Because, you know, I do find that you sit down and you have a lot of tension, but actually, finally, it is a healing process. You're working things out. I think each play confronts a different truth. I think the thing about loneliness is something that I would, you know, return to in my plays. And how do we deal with that? How do we deal with our own sense of mortality and loneliness and despair, I think also the uncomfortable truths about violence. There's quite a lot of violence. How do you deal with violent people or violence which happened to you in the past?

Rukhsana 27:55

Are you talking about physical violence?

Neil 27:57

Physical violence and emotional violence. I mean, they're just as bad as each other, really, you know, and one you can't see, but they're both, you know, awful. And I think about those, physical violence will lead to somebody accepting emotional violence. They don't get hit later, but they allow themselves to be hit emotionally by somebody.

Shiroma 28:17

And I suppose there's also tired truths, as that actor was saying, don't, don't necessarily bother about racism.

Neil 28:24

He was an Indian actor as well. He's an alpha male, that actor, because we actually saw him for the part, and we thought, well, you're more like Michael, aren't you, than you are like Dev. But I think, yeah, there's a lot of people that don't want to look at those things or think that society, I mean, because within that play, Michael has a daughter who is also on him, and he's so fed up of the world and all its categories now, you know. And there's a bit of that I understand, you know. And you know, there's a bit of that, but not all of it.

Shiroma 29:00

Why theatre? Why that medium?

Neil 29:02

I fell in love with theatre when I was a kid, because, you know, I think it, it absolutely can take you places in a live moment. It offers huge possibilities for a story which is just a very realistic story or something fantastical you don't need, you know, there's a thing called Poor Theatre, where you can do huge special effects on stage without any kind of special effects, and Complicite do it very well, and other companies. You know, I remember seeing Coram Boy with somebody swimming underwater with a rope, and somebody's holding the rope, and it's a Brechtian thing. You can see the person holding the rope and the other person swimming. Doesn't matter, because we suspend our disbelief, if the image is beautiful enough. So I think theatre still has the possibility. But I do have to be honest, I do see quite a lot of boring theatre. I sit there and I sit there for three hours watching the long Shakespeare. And I think is anybody going to want to come and see this? If, if this is all we're showing them?

Jaswinder 30:05

I think you do get that in every medium though don't you. I mean I watch a lot of bad television. But I wonder, because you've started writing for radio as well now. And so I wonder, yeah, what's your experience of writing for other mediums? And is that changing your approach to writing? Do you find yourself now gravitating towards radio or screenwriting?

Neil 30:24

Theatre is people talking to each other in a room, they're convincing each other of something, and film is a slightly different medium. It's much more visual, as is television. Radio still has that notion of you speaking to the listener and the listener listening very intently to what's going on. Radio has huge possibilities of imagination, because the words can suggest so many things. I am interested in film. I'll be honest, I'm interested in turning Out of Season into a film. I've got a meeting with a director on Saturday about it. I love theatre. I love the possibilities of theatre, but I like all the mediums, basically, but I am interested, at the moment, in writing more for screen as well.

Shiroma 31:12

And bringing it back to theatre. How do you describe the British theatre experience? I mean, how has that changed?

Neil 31:19

From the Asian culture perspective, or just in general?

Shiroma 31:22

Well, um, let's start with generally. But I mean, moving onto the the Asian culture.

Neil 31:26

I've thought about this a lot because there was nobody in my family who decided to do this career choice apart from me. There's no uncle that was on the stage or that was doing, I don't know, you know, plays in the forest in India or whatever. You know, there was nobody. One of my first experiences was my mum used to get free tickets to musicals which were failing in the 70s, because she was in a corporate company she was in payroll, she didn't have a big job, but they used to give these tickets out. So we went to see a musical like Dr Bernardo, which was a failing musical. And I loved it, but you got there, and I absolutely loved it. You know, I was kind of enthralled at this revolve stage and all of this, and also at the fact that we had to dress up. My parents made us dress up to go to the theatre, and in the 70s, you did. And I remember being in the bar and feeling like, kind of like there was some kind of society that I wasn't allowed to be part of. And I thought, I want to be part of it. And now I think that's changed. When I think back to theatre then it was very middle class, and it was or upper middle class even, and there was a sense that you weren't really allowed to be part of it. This was a rarefied thing. And now I think it's much more inclusive, which I think is a brilliant thing.

Jaswinder 32:40

And I think you've got a unique perspective, because obviously you're an actor and you're also a writer, so that you've really been able to see, in terms of British South Asian representation, what stories are being told, which new voices are kind of emerging, coming up, what kind of plays and ideas are being explored. So in terms of that specific aspect, what do you notice might have changed over the last 20 years?

Neil 33:03

Well, I mean, in my view, it was a scarcity mentality when I got out of drama school, in that there wasn't many roles, the agents who would now be wanting Black and Asian clients were actually actively saying, there's no work for you lot. And the roles that existed, or the TV shows that were made, everybody was competing. So there was a kind of a mentality of scarcity. It's not enough to go round. And I've got it. I'm not giving it to you. And I felt that that did exist within the Asian network. However, now I think it's very different. The younger kids coming through don't have that. And also they have a different connection to whatever part of the country and of India they come from. They also really identify being British in a different way. And I think, you know, I think there are fantastic people coming through who don't think in the same way. And I think that's great. I think each, each kind of generation has done their best and done really great work. But I think this new generation is fantastic, very interesting. These kids coming through who, you know, have a part of them which is Asian, but a part of them which is totally British and doesn't maybe feel the lack of self esteem that some of us felt in the 70s. You know, that thing of not allowed to be part of it? Well, these kids feel absolutely part of it.

Shiroma 34:28

So things have got a lot better?

Neil 34:31

In some ways, yeah.

Shiroma 34:33

What are the barriers that are still there?

Neil 34:34

Okay, so things have got a lot better. In terms of, when they're casting a film or a telly thing, they'll look for an Indian character. They'll actually properly be doing diverse casting. Those are great things. There are many more plays being commissioned and put on, you know, which are about the South Asian diaspora or that community. What's become difficult for them is you can't make a living. I mean, that's the difficulty. In that time, when I was out of drama school, two actors could still get married, go and do their jobs in theatre around the place. One might get a telly series if they're lucky, and they could buy a house and settle down and have a kid, and whatever they wanted to do. You cannot do that. Now. You can't do that if you're probably a doctor or a dentist, you know you'd struggle. So now, I don't know, it's very hard for those kids now to to live in London on theatre wages.

Shiroma 35:28

But isn't that across the board, really, for everybody?

Neil 35:31

I think it is. It is. But I think acting, you know, a lot of times you're doing it for pocket money, you know, I mean, it's not pocket money. But you know, the kind of raises we get compared to the raises you would get if you were, you know, in another job is just ridiculous. You know, once every five years, someone throws us a little bone.

Shiroma 35:49

Are there specific barriers for Asian writers?

Neil 35:53

I think there are. I think I still think within the industry, there's a lot of box ticking. I do feel that, I think that people also want to, you know, they want to invite your stories in, but they want to control them sometimes. You know, they want the narrative to go in a certain way. I think there can be, there can be.

Jaswinder 36:13

I think what you're saying about the general kind of economic state of the arts and the difficulty of making a living, it's also, yes, that is across the board, but it reproduces inequality, right? So people who are already starting without that, you know, foothold in the industry, or coming from a background where those careers are not necessarily encouraged or supported, we're reproducing that kind of exclusion, actually, because it's so hard now for it to be a viable career, even if there are more people who are more confident about their stories and their voices, it's actually incredibly hard to build a career from it is.

Neil 36:49

Yeah, I mean, the only way you can do it is through television, through becoming, you know, well known on television. I think it is. It is really hard, you know, for those kids, I see them doing a lot of jobs to kind of make do, and we all did that in the beginning, but I just don't know when they'll be able to stop doing this. Whereas I think there was a notion that, I did it. I was a barman for quite a number of years, but I could stop at a certain point. So I think that is hard for any young artist coming through now.

Rukhsana 37:17

This younger generation is the millennials you're talking about?

Neil 37:20

The millennials and the next generation as well. You know, I think that I think it's really tough for them, I would say, as well. The only other challenge, I would say, is that I suppose something I feel is that that Teflon coating that you needed, starting in the 70s, 80s, 90s, you really do need that in any form of theatre. You really do need that to get through. You've got to have it on the outside, while on the inside, you've got to be sensitive and all of that, you've got to have sensitivity. And I do sometimes look at this generation, the younger generation, and I wonder whether they have that Teflon coating, because I think there's a lot of people that feel quite sensitive and they have arguments with each other and whatnot. And in a way, you've got to be able to tough it out, because it is an industry which is tough.

Shiroma 38:10

And talk about Teflon coating, underneath that, how have your perspectives on your own identity changed through writing for theatre?

Neil 38:20

I kind of set myself three plays. I said, once I wrote three plays I can say I'm a writer. I'd always say it was an actor who writes before now and then this last one came out. I said, No, I'm a writer as well, you know. So it took me a while to find that identity and to say, Yes, this is something I can do. I am a believer that artists are always insecure. Maybe Mozart wasn't, I don't know. But, you know, I think a lot of the time when somebody has done a brilliant thing outwardly to the world, inwardly, they'll be sitting there thinking, have I mucked up? Is it any good? They ask the question, is it any good? And I don't think that's a bad question. I think when you start saying it is good, that is when it's often not that good. So there's a weird thing where you've got to be able to hold your own insecurity in order to create and not let it destroy you, but not get rid of it completely either, it's important.

Rukhsana 39:22

Yes, because that's the vulnerability that is actually the source of all creative juices.

Neil 39:29

Yeah, I I always describe it as, like with an actor, I describe it as falling off the horse with your lines, right? So some people learn their lines and they learn them and learn them and learn them, and then they go out and they do their lines, but all you see them is them reciting their lines. And actually, what you want them to do is go out there and play the lines. And that requires something much more vulnerable, and it's scary, and often it's quite good. If, like on a bike, you fall off at the beginning and oh my god, he's lost his lines, and you're feel terrible, but when you get back on the bike, then you're not afraid of falling off.

Shiroma 40:04

Talking about lines, is there a line that you'd like to recite from one of your works?

Jaswinder 40:12

Favorite line from one of your plays?

Neil 40:13

My favorite line from one of my plays? Actually, you know what I was just thinking of one there. Oh yes, this was it. The last play I wrote was about, well, it starts with a couple of guys on holiday, and they go back to a cheap hotel that they went to in their 20s, and they try and relive their youth. And it all goes terribly wrong. And they look out of the window in Ibiza, and they say, why do they do it? Why do they sit around the pool when the sea is 100 yards away, and the other one goes, so the sea is just there, it's just there. And I, I'm always amazed at that. When I go to hotels, I'm like, and you've got some terrible pool, and people just sit around the pool all day when the sea is just there. The other one I like, actually, is oud, which was, you know, how oud is in everything now. And I always thought, what is oud? What is it? Well, yes, there's stuff in it. It's stuff that is good and attracts women, or something, and so it's that kind of I quite like the dialogue of everyday life.

Shiroma 41:11

Thank you very much for joining us.

Jaswinder 41:12

Thank you.

Neil 41:12

Thank you very much. Been a pleasure.

Rukhsana 41:14

Thank you real pleasure, and thank you for being so honest.

Shiroma 41:21

The Next Act is executive produced by Jaswinder Blackwell-Pal, Shiroma Silva and Rukhsana Ahmad. It is edited and assistant produced by Kavita Kukar and Malia Haider. Our research assistant is Carrie Luce and the technical producer is Matthew Kowalczuk. Our designer is Arjun Mahadevan. It is funded and supported by the Center for Public Engagement and the Department of drama at Queen Mary University of London. You can follow up online at www.thenextact.co.uk.