Sonali
Bhattacharyya

Bio

Sonali Bhattacharyya is a playwright and screenwriter. She is a graduate of the Royal Court Writers’ Group, the inaugural Old Vic 12, and was also a Channel 4 Writer in Residence at the Orange Tree. Her play Chasing Hares (2022) performed at the Young Vic is the story of a factory worker in West Bengal who is recruited to write a play. He seizes the opportunity to expose the injustice of the factory conditions, but in his fight for justice he risks his entire life and the life of his family. It won the Sonia Friedman Production Award and Theatre Uncut’s Political Playwriting Award.

In addition, her play King Troll (The Fawn) (2024), is the story of two migrant sisters navigating the authoritarian immigration system in dramatically different ways, it was nominated for two Offie Awards, and made her a finalist for the Woman’s Prize for Playwriting.

Transcript

Shiroma 0:10

Welcome to The Next Act: British South Asian Playwrights. A new series focusing on the voices shaping the future of British South Asian theatre. Each episode centers on a conversation with a single playwright, examining their creative processes and the political, personal and artistic forces that drive and inform their work, bringing about lively, thought provoking dialogs that explore the zeitgeist in this theater landscape. I'm Shiroma Silva. I'm a film director, a radio producer and broadcast journalist. With me is Rukhsana Ahmad.

Rukhsana 0:42

I'm a writer, playwright and translator. I'm also the founder of Kali Theatre Company and Sadaa.

Shiroma 0:49

And Jaswinder Blackwell Pal.

Jaswinder 0:51

I'm a lecturer in theater and performance studies at Queen Mary University of London.

Shiroma 0:57

Today we're joined by Sonali Bhattacharyya, a playwright and screenwriter. She's a graduate of the Royal Court Writers Group and the inaugural Old Vic 12, as well as a Channel 4 Writer in Residence at the Orange Tree. Her play Chasing Haree of 2022, performed at the Young Vic, is a story of a factory worker in West Bengal who's recruited to write a play. He seizes the opportunity to expose the injustice of the factory conditions, but in his fight for justice, he risks his entire life and the life of his family. It won the Sonia Friedman production award and Theatre Uncuts Political Playwriting award, in addition. her play King Troll: The Faun, of 2024, is a story of two migrant sisters navigating the authoritarian immigration system in dramatically different ways. It was nominated for two Offie awards and made her a finalist for the Women's Prize for playwriting.

Welcome to our podcast series, and today we're joined by Shonali Bhattacharyya. Sonali, welcome.

Sonali 2:05

Thanks for having me.

Shiroma 2:05

Great to have you here. Tell us about your route into playwriting. I mean, how did you get started?

Sonali 2:15

So I come from a fairly typical migrant family. We were not theatre goers growing up, I went to see Joseph and his Technicolor Dream Coat as a child, what was still the theatre in Leicester, that's no longer there, Leicester Haymarket, and decided on that basis, I didn't like theatre. So. But I was very, very interested in film and TV growing up and basically, also in a very typically migrant household, spent most of my time watching film and TV because I didn't go out very much because all the racists, so lived a lot of my life through the screen and so wanted to direct. First of all, when I was I used to make, like, little short videos on my dad's camcorder. When I was a teenager, we didn't know anyone that works in the arts and stuff. So I was like, Well, that's what you do. You like, make, you direct films. My parents were, like, agreeable enough to let me study Media Arts as an undergraduate, which is quite unusual. Bless them, they were not overly happy, but they let me, and I thought I was going to be a director, and then I found that I ended up specializing in Screenwriting. And I was like, Oh, this is really comfortable. I really enjoy this.

And so wanted to be a writer from that point on, sort of like, wanted to be a screenwriter. Didn't know anyone in the film industry, but through slightly, jammily, the first screenplay that I wrote, which was on that module when I was an undergraduate, got me my first agent, was quite a big agent, which I thought was just how things happened. So I thought that was just like run of the mill sort of stuff. It's only when I got my first commission, then was in development hell for like, about five years, I got a bit of, a bit more of a dose of reality, and things have been quite circuitous since then, which I think is probably fairly, fairly regular as well. Really, my writing career is sort of like separated into two, really, I think I was like, a very go getting sort of career focused writer in my earlier, the early part of my career, and then had a really difficult bereavement, like, I guess, like a life changing bereavement, really, and had a hiatus from writing. I didn't write for about maybe, like, three, four years, maybe a bit longer, couldn't write. And when I came back into writing, that's really when I would say I became a playwright.

The first play that I started writing, which was really just quite cathartic at that point, was for the stage, and it was pretty out there. It was very honest. It was like - there was a new sort of like urgency, I guess, to my work at that point, because I realized that I had to write. It felt quite different to before. And all of my ideas for the for the stage, which is quite unusual, because, like I said, I wasn't necessarily a very big stage, persion, but I found that that the theatres that I was approaching, were very open to me writing quite politically and formally inventive plays, and they wanted to see very authored work in a way that didn't feel watered down in the way that TV had felt when I was younger. And so I basically was like, Okay, I'll try this for a year, see what happens. And it went really well. And I was really I got a lot of encouragement. And so that was, like, my routine really, like, quite circuitous. It's never felt secure, but I think I've held on to that feeling since that, that break in my career, that if you're going to write, then the only point in writing is to write what you really feel angry about or feel passionate about or needs to be said.

Shiroma 5:48

And in that feeling, there must have been other influencers, writers, dramatists, even directors, who were angry, passionate, who inspired you.

Sonali 6:00

Yeah, so I would say I was thinking a bit about this as well, because I find it difficult to come up with a load of playwrights. My influences are very broad and varied. I've always been drawn to iconoclasts. I've always been drawn to people who, I guess, have that same sense of urgency and sort of like trying to sort of speak to the untold narrative, and trying to speak to the other side of the, you know, hegemonic narrative. And I guess that does, in some ways, has a bit of a root in how I've always understood - My parents are Bengali, they're from like, in and around Kolkata, and how I understand a lot of the Bengali culture that they grew up with as well. So, yeah, I'm really influenced by, like, theatre directors, like, sorry, film directors like Pasolini, Bunuel. They were, like, some of my earliest sort of, like Goddard. I was, like, really influenced by, you know, I love horror, as we'll probably come on to, you know, George Romero, and a lot of Japanese horror, Korean horror.

And in terms of, like, yes, like playwrights, I guess, you know, I mean, it's not, it's probably not surprising. But I think I've always really drawn from, like, Caryl Churchill. I was lucky enough to meet Caryl Churchill. She came to see King troll, which was amazing. And I was like, I would not write plays if it wasn't for your work, because I always thought theatre was really boring and not for me. And like her, work always speaks to the fact that you can redefine what a story is with each new project. And yeah, contemporaries, you know, people like Waleed Akhtar, and like, you know, you had Zain Dada on, I think, also sort of doing that, trying to, sort of like, reinvent what the form is each time, which is really exciting, and the stories that can be told. And really influenced by a lot of non fiction as well, like a lot of, you know, really great sort of history and theory. Been reading, Sita Balani's, new book recently it's fantastic, that's had a massive influence upon the new play that I'm writing, really influenced by a lot of music Nina Simone, quite a bit of sort of like girl punk rock stuff. And these are the sort of things I think that just end up sort of working this sort of melange into the stories that sort of bubble up and filter through. So pretty eclectic, really.

Jaswinder 8:27

Yeah, you mentioned there your Bengali background. I wondered if you could say a little bit more about how that kind of features in your plays. So thinking of Chasing Hares, for example, which was staged at the Young Vic, that play features jatra, so traditional, a traditional form of Bengali folk theater. So could you say a little bit more about how those influences, those kind of forms of art and performance influence your own writing?

Sonali 8:51

Yeah. So I've probably got a slightly idealized relationship with Bengali culture, because obviously, I was born and brought up in Leicester in the East Midlands, which doesn't even have very many Bengali people. And like mum and dad, when we were growing up, any Bengali that came through Leicester would come to our house for dinner. That's how few of us there are. But I guess, like the way that it's filtered down to me is like a second generation migrant, is that Bengali culture is really rooted in quite an open embrace of resistance, like west Bengal, greater Bengal, obviously, that partition is a British partition. Greater Bengal was like a real hotbed of, sort of resistance to imperialism. I've grown up with a lot of like, a real interest in, like, decolonial history and anti imperialist history, and the Bengali, sort of, like basis of that has been really interesting to me and culturally, the relationship between art, culture and politics and organizing in Bengal is very sort of fluid. It's not weird in that part of the country at all to be a labor organizer and a poet and an actor. You know those thingsare actually seen as feeding off each other.

And Chasing Hares, particularly like, I really wanted to draw on that understanding in that tradition. So I've got a maternal uncle. My middle maternal uncle, who I've always really looked up to, is always, you know, I mean, has been sort of an active member, an active trade unionist, a member of the Communist Party of India, quote, unquote, Marxist, but has always been really excited and passionate about Jatra. Has been a Jatra performer, and as a younger man, was part of, sort of, like the art and culture wing of his local sort of CPIM, sort of branch and and that, to me, makes perfect sense. Like you, we have to tell our stories in order to sort of, like, disrupt the system, and to sort of question the system. And there's something really beautiful about that. And jatra. I really wanted to write about jatra. It felt like such an evocative way of speaking to why I write theatre and what theatre can offer, like bringing us together in a space that's communal and collective. And of course, we all have a very different relationship with the story that's going on on stage. But another key thing about jatra is afterwards, you hang around for a couple of hours to deconstruct what you've just watched so you can, like, you know, speak to a shared understanding later on. That's not so common in Britain, maybe in the bar afterwards, but, yeah, that was something I really wanted to draw on with that play.

Rukhsana 11:26

So is there, is there an image or a symbol in your work that you feel acts as the heartbeat of the story? So any of the plays, and how do you select that image?

Sonali 11:36

Yeah, I think that that always is. And you I don't know until I'm writing it. And possibly not even for first or second draft, I always write an exploratory draft where I really try and get underneath the skin of what it is I'm trying to say. I often don't know what I'm trying to say until I finish that first exploratory draft and, like, really get to the heart of it and then sometimes the image comes about. So like, the play that I had on at the Orange Tree, 2 Billion Beats. I didn't know it was going to be called 2 Billion Beats for ages like that, that line just came out from one of the characters about how we only have 2 billion beats. You know, our heart beats 2 billion times, and then we die. And then I realized that I was trying to write a play about what it is to be human, and what are, what our human responsibility is to one another, and what do we do with those 2 billion beats? But those things formed quite organically in the writing. With Chasing Hares as well, like everyone, like it had to be called Chasing Hares, but it's like, it's a very oblique reference, like to Jean Jacques Rousseau quote. But it was about, you know that you're we're stronger together, organizing collectively to fight, to hunt and kill the one stag, than to all run off in separate directions chasing hares. But these things, they, they sort of bubble up again. And I don't really know what it is going to be, but it's much better. You know, I think you know a play is working when that happens.

Rukhsana 13:08

Yes, absolutely I agree with that. Yes, I do agree with that. Now tell me, is there, is there any character that always gets, takes over in your play? Are there any characters that take over? Because there's - you often hear writers saying, Oh, I wanted to do this, but the character took over from me. That sort of thing. Does that happen to you? Ever that happened to you?

Sonali 13:32

I think it always happens. And if it doesn't happen, once again, I think your play is not working. I think there's usually like it feels like a, it feels like a small eureka moment. Every time that does happen, when you realize - it's usually you realize that the character wants, doesn't necessarily want what you think they wanted. So with King Troll, for instance, like that definitely happened. Like it was always ostensibly going to be about a brown woman who's take over, taken over by her own sort of selfish desire for safety and security. But when I first started writing it, I thought it was going to be maybe. I thought she was going to be a bit more like of a slightly, maybe more two dimensional brown Tory type character. And that's how I had it. I was like, yeah, she's going to be like a brown Tory, and it's like -

Rukhsana 14:24

The younger sister? Did you mean the younger sister?

Sonali 14:28

Younger sister. Yeah. And then as I started writing it, it's like, that became very boring, very quickly, and I realized that there's something much deeper to that desire. And then she became a very different character. By the end, actually, she wasn't that at all. But yeah, you sort of like, I guess it goes again, I think to what I was saying about you work out, you have to work out what it is you're trying to say, and then you work out where the characters are taking you. They sort of go hand in hand.

Rukhsana 14:56

What's interesting about that piece was the organicity of the play. It's very, very interesting. It's one of those pieces where it does feel very organic and very well integrated as a piece of writing. I enjoyed it.

Jaswinder 15:09

I wondered if we could stay on King Troll for a bit, actually, because you talked a little bit about how that play started in one way and then went another direction. So it ends up really being this, like, quite visceral exploration of the asylum migration system, the kind of cruel mechanics of those policies and those systems. And so you ended up using quite a lot of horror, I guess, as a kind of genre, as a medium to tell that story. Could you talk a little bit about that, what that journey was like, writing that play, where you started from and where it led you?

Sonali 15:41

So I somewhat depressingly, started writing King Troll about eight years ago, which gives you an insight. And it's like one of those things where you don't want to try and work out how much you were paid per hour, and that's often the way of the writer. But yeah, when I first started writing it, it was a seed commission for a company called The Coterie was like the very, very, very first iteration. And like I say, it was supposed to be about, the troll in it was supposed to be like, as in an online troll. It was supposed to be about this brown woman who was being harassed by the far right online, and so she creates an avatar who looks like a well spoken white man to basically advocate for her. So the in the bare bones of the story is the same. And I very quickly learned, first of all, as soon as anyone mentioned Twitter in a in this play, all the energy was sucked out of the room like a vacuum. That's not to say I don't think they were. They were great Twitter plays. And obviously Millie Bhattia has like, directed, probably like that.

Jaswinder 16:40

But it is hard on social media in a way that doesn't absolutely cringe.

Sonali 16:46

And I feel like it's been done now, like it's been done really well anyway. So I was like, okay, so I had to really go away and rethink it. And the turning point for me was thinking, Okay, well, what about if they live in a world where there is no internet, there's no Internet, and that was what unlocked, the idea that actually, it's not an online troll, it's actually a fucking troll. And then obviously, then that became of completely different play, like the premise was the same, but what it unlocked was something much, much darker and much more visceral about who this character was and what they needed and wanted.

So I continued to write that version, except not online for another couple of drafts. And I guess at that point I was trying to keep abreast of what was happening in terms of the border regime in this country. I was trying to, sort of like write a fairly socio realistic play, except with the troll and to keep up with the border regime. But I very quickly realized two or three drafts in from that that I couldn't keep up with what was happening with the border regime, that every time I finished a draft, the cruelty and the racism and the absolute inhumanity had reached depths I couldn't, I couldn't imagine, I couldn't envisage, and that we were at a point that it was impossible to try and keep up with it in terms of, like, you know, in any sort of documentary way. So I was like, Okay, well, it has to be a horror. That's the only way to try and evoke the the, you know, the descent that we - I say dissent, we're already there, but the only way to try and evoke the reality of the border regime would be truthfully through horror. And that's when it became balls out horror, basically.

And that's really unlocked something for me. I love horror. Anyway, as I've mentioned, I've always wanted to write horror. And I was like, Well, yeah, this is, this is, this is the horror. And then for the for and then as we got closer to production, I guess the the interesting question that that was posed that was that we wanted the audience, we didn't want the audience to leave thinking that was awful. Thank God that doesn't happen here. So the reality of what Riya and Nikita go through had to be rooted in reality of the home office, but the horror had to be heightened. So it was hopefully a clear distinction, so people were able to, like, access the horror, but also not be, not let, not let Britain off the hook. Basically, that became the trickiest thing.

Shiroma 19:22

The horror that you talk about in in in the form of the troll. I mean, it's a supernatural horror, in a way, isn't it? So how did you kind of hit upon that? As opposed to, I don't know, maybe a ghost, some kind of spirit, even this troll was a physical being, and was semi human naturally, and was actually genuinely quite caring and loving and protective in certain ways, but also not quite so in others.

Sonali 19:55

So the troll was as soon as I decided it was going to be a troll, the troll was always going to be a homunculus now, slightly, I've always wanted to write a play about homunculus, though I said it, and I've never been able to get one in. And the reason, I don't know, I don't know why I've always wanted to write a play about homunculus, but just, just give you an insight to maybe why. So in the 15th century, the alchemists believe that they can make human life through man alone, but people with wombs were simply receptacles to sort of just keep the sperm warm and to grow it into humans, and that if you could jack off into a deep and dark enough hole, leave it there for 30 days, a small human would spring forth to do your bidding. And I've always loved this idea, and I really wanted Riya to make her own homunculus. And once that became the thing, it became really clear that that homunculus had to exist in order to do her bidding, and all that all she wants is home and safety. So it had to then be connected to the border regime. So in this way, the internal logic of the King Troll was always there. It was just about unlocking different components to make it all fit together, if that makes sense.

Shiroma 21:15

Then, can I ask you still on Troll, but also moving on to Chasing Hares about your politics and how it's reflected in your work. I mean, you know, politics is, is a tough thing, isn't it? I mean, because it's multi layered and personal, politics can play into these things in a in a very multi dimensional way. So let me start with King Troll, and then move on Chasing Hares and tell us about that.

Sonali 21:43

So I guess, like I've always, I feel like I've maybe only been conscious of this, but more recently. But I think I now realize that maybe all the time I've been writing, I don't, I don't think there's any point in writing, unless you're writing to try and pursue and further social change, like, I just think it's like, I think it's a waste of time, unless you're trying to do that. I mean, and obviously it's not to say I don't watch things and love things that maybe aren't necessarily as emphatic about that as I am, but I feel like, for me, that's my role as a writer, and the plays that I write that I am proudest of and most successful are the ones that I think do that while also being a good night out and while also fulfilling the expectations of every audience member. I mean, like, you know you're not getting people in to give them a TED talk. But you do, I do want people to leave seeing the world differently and seeing, like, hopefully, thinking of thinking about the possibility of change.

Shiroma 22:54

So what change did you want to instigate with King Troll?

Sonali 22:56

So with King Troll, I guess, like, it's probably my bleakest play, I'll be honest with you, and certainly felt different writing it to Chasing Hares where I don't think I felt quite as despairing. But I was really angry writing King Troll, and I wanted to share that anger with an audience, and I wanted to see, I wanted to place a variety of migrant characters on stage who had very different positions on the border regime, because I don't think we see that multiplicity of of thought and experience on stage. I wanted to get away from this sort of two dimensionality around like migrant characters, where they're either very hard working, or drug dealers or like, you know, I just, it's really boring. I wanted to write, you know, what, I wanted to write the people that I have grown up with, really, I mean, not, not that I've grown with the homunculus, but, you know, the anger and the sense of, you know, justifiable sense, sometimes of bitterness and like cold hearted, sorry, cold eyed understanding of what Britain is, I don't see that very often. I understand why I don't see that very often, because I know it's really frightening, and we, none of us, feel very secure. And so saying those things can make can, yeah, it's quite scary, probably.

Shiroma 24:24

But one of the sisters actually ends up working for the Border Agency and perhaps feels that that's her way of helping.

Sonali 24:32

No, she doesn't think that's her way of helping. She thinks that's her way of saving her own skin. But at no point does Riya think - even Riya is a character, however flawed she is, is not so flawed that she's delusional. She knows that she gives up her soul. She knows, and she knows that because she destroys her relationship with her sister, the only person in the world who understands and loves her.

Jaswinder 24:58

I think one of the things that's really interesting about your work, in thinking about the political aspect, and that seems to be consistent across so many of your plays, is that they stage the actual work of organizing. I think that's something that we rarely see. You might see a protest staged, you know, in a play, but actually you rarely see the kind of nuts and bolts organizing, the labor of organizing, as it were, that's there in King Troll its there in Chasing Hares. It's also there in some of the other plays, like Liberation Squares. Could you say a little bit more about that, and some of the problems or challenges, actually, of integrating that kind of world of labor organizing or social movement organizing into dramatic fiction?

Sonali 25:38

Yeah, honestly, I still, I think I've yet to write the play, but I really do that as much as I would like to, I think it's fascinating. I think that there's something so inherently just dramatically interesting about I mean, if you think about what makes a really good story, right? It's like a load of, a load of people who have completely different like, are coming from completely different places, maybe different physically different places, regionally, certainly different life experiences, coming together and trying to do something that's really interesting. Everyone's always looking for ideas like that. Why don't we see more stories about about, yes, like political organizing, it's fascinating. Often, if we do, it's like, really reductive, and they're always like, bit jokey, and it's like, Oh, they smell a bit or like, there's always like these, like gags.

Jaswinder 26:26

Or you're just in constant meetings.

Sonali 26:27

Constant meetings, exactly!

Jaswinder 26:28

Which is part of it.

Sonali 26:29

Which is part of it, but it's also quite interesting. So yeah, I always want to do that. I mean, there is a slightly like idealistic reason as well. Like, we're Chasing Hares, for instance, specifically, I was really clear quite early on in the development process that I wanted to just for the audience to just sort of like, so just dramatize, just that first organizing conversation, to try and demystify, like, this thing about trade union organizing for the audience, and to see, like, Oh, it's just, this is how it starts. And it's like this woman's fucked off, like she's not getting paid enough. She wants to talk to her colleagues, but she's scared about doing it. So you see, like her grappling with that. And the whole play is actually about the, you know, her memory of her dad, the ghost of her dad. Sorry, spoiler alert, but.

Jaswinder 27:15

I think it's okay.

Sonali 27:16

But like, yeah, the whole play is like her trying to find the courage to do that. So it's not downplaying the enormity of that in terms of like on a personal level, but to try and say this is what it looks like and that we can't improve circumstances for ourselves, let alone society, unless we do this. So I find it inherently interesting with Liberation Squares, the whole thing just felt like it should be an organizing workshop. And the reason why it was fun is because it was an organizing workshop with those three girls who were like, absolutely like the people that you want in any campaign, are those three girls in Liberation Squares, you want a beatboxer. You want someone who's really like navel gazing and a little bit like detail obsessed. You want someone who's got a massive ego and always wants to do the press. It's like, that's brilliant. That's perfect, perfect core organizing team. But I thought it was really interesting to sort of try and get underneath the starting point for that play was about trying to write about how our right to protest has not just been eroded. It's gone now they've taken it away. And then to try to sort of look back a little bit as to how that happened, and I really like think that Prevent has been a key like early block that was, you know, sort of like put in place in order to take away our, more and more of our rights. And people haven't been paying attention because it's been directed primarily against the Muslim community. So I wanted to write about that, and in order to do that, you have to sort of celebrate organizing. You have to celebrate what's been lost and the importance of what that is. And so that's that's basically why, but they're really fun. I love writing about organizing. I love writing meetings. It's hilarious.

Shiroma 29:08

And can I ask just, do you think that you have been able to get people engaged as a result?

Sonali 29:14

So Chasing Hares, this is one of my favorite stories about any of my plays. Chasing Hares, the first dress rehearsal. I hope I'm okay to say this. Hopefully this won't get me blacklisted. The front of house staff came to see the first dress rehearsal, and when they left, they had an organizing conversation about, about their pay. And they won a pay uplift the following week.

Jaswinder 29:35

That's amazing.

Sonali 29:36

And we were all very, very proud of ourselves, yeah.

Shiroma 29:41

So collective action.

Sonali 29:43

It's the only thing against the goods. Yeah, can't do anything by ourselves.

Shiroma 29:47

But it is a balance between that and then individual survival, isn't it as well?

Sonali 29:51

No, I don't think so. I think we stand and fall with each other, really, unless you happen to be a billionaire, in which case you've exploted a lot of people along the way.

Jaswinder 30:01

But some of your characters are working that out, they're on that journey.

Sonali 30:05

100%. I mean that, of course, like, I say that really glibly, because it's, you know, it's easy to say, if you I mean, in lots of ways it's easy to say, because I sit, I spend a lot of my working life sitting behind a desk inventing characters. I don't actually have to have a lot of like, you know, on the floor, organizing conversations. I haven't had to for long time anyway, but I genuinely do think that, yeah, we are - there's a reason why atomization is happening, and there's a reason why, you know, these divisions that we're seeing in society. I mentioned, you know, Supreme Court ruling last week, for instance, is the reason why people are being othered and monstered is to keep us apart. Because when we organize collectively, we are it's not just that we're powerful. It's actually, I think, the only way we achieve anything. And it's not as hard as it looks or people think it is, but I think it's harder to overcome the division some more that they're we allow them to mount up.

Shiroma 30:05

And maybe that's perhaps the same takeaway, that it's not as hard as it looks.

Sonali 30:05

Yeah, 100% I agree with that.

Rukhsana 30:06

I was going to say, what is the absolutely essential, invisible part of your process that audiences would never guess?

Sonali 30:14

You know, I do loads and loads of - I do a lot of research, and I probably junk a lot of research. I probably, I probably do more reading and listening and watching for a play than I need to in order to feel confident enough to write it.

Rukhsana 31:31

It can never be too much.

Sonali 31:33

No, it's 100% Yeah.

Jaswinder 31:34

But at some point you've got to stop and start writing.

Sonali 31:36

Yeah. And you can't put it all into the play because it's really boring.

Rukhsana 31:41

That's the other danger.

Jaswinder 31:42

How do you kind of kind of navigate that? Because, yeah, as you've kind of narrated, your plays are really richly informed by these many influences, which are both dramatic, cinematic, but also political, literary, theoretical, etc. So how do you balance that? When you're figuring out, I want to write about this, I've read all these ideas, or I'm informed by all of these ideas about this topic. How do I condense that, you know, into a kind of clear story, a clear plot, a clear set of characters, which isn't kind of overburdened by that research?

Sonali 32:14

Yeah, you get to a point, and you might not get it to this with the first or second draft, hopefully by third draft, but you get to a point where it just has to be really fun. You have to have fun writing it, and if you're not having fun writing it, then no one's going to have fun watching it. And so you sort of have to, you sort of, you have to sort of shrug it off and wear it a bit more lightly. But King Troll was really influenced, and what always happens with the influences, but it's the first play that's really been influenced by Frantz Fanon. And of course, like you say that it sounds really heavy, but of course, like Riya, it absolutely embodies so much of what FranzFanon was writing about.

Jaswinder 32:50

Yeah and you're finding a way to kind of dramatize those ideas, rather than kind of replicate the text onto the stage.

Sonali 32:56

Exactly, exactly. And of course, like the best theorist, like Frantz Fanon, but his writing is really enjoyable and readable as well. So like, even he was doing that with this theory. But I think that's the thing that I take away. It's like these, really interested in ideas, like I'm really interested in these concepts that you know are increasingly our mainstream sort of culture doesn't really allow to be sort of filter into. And I think those ideas are so interesting in that there's there's really rich like vein to dramatize them in terms of, like, how minoritized people experience the world.

Shiroma 33:31

Why did you choose theatre? We're in an age where our attention is basically being grabbed by everything around us. So what was it that theatre held in a way that other things didn't, and don't, even today, when when it's so competitive?

Sonali 33:51

So I should say I'm writing for TV and film now as well. I love film. I've always wanted to write for film, honestly, big heads up, if anyone wants someone to commission me to write another film. But I think with theatre like I say in lots of ways, I think theatre chose me. Like I think that I was given opportunities to write what I wanted to in theatre, certainly when I starting out TV, TV has gotten lots of ways, I think is - it sort of comes and goes, but TV is more authored now than when I was starting out, although it's still harder to get your ideas past the past the line, because, over the line, because, obviously it's so expensive. The film industry, I think, is starting to feel a bit more open now as well. But I think probably because I've got a bit of a, you know, I'm more established as a playwrite now, so people are trusting me more, but I think it was theatre that first, you know, gave me the opportunity to write what I wanted.

Shiroma 34:47

But is there a certain, I don't know creativity in a way, that theatre has, that the other mediums, don't? I mean, I was just thinking like Chasing Hares. You know, there's so much theatricality there, there's there's allegories, there's illusions. So it had this sort of very gritty, central political narrative, and then all this surreal stuff happening.

Sonali 35:06

Yeah I mean, I love theatricality. I absolutely love it. And that's part of the - the things I love about theatre. I actually love everything about theatre. The only thing I don't like is how restricted sometimes it is in terms of, like, money and time, but the collaborative process of theatre, where you're collaborating right up until press night, is absolutely glorious. And like, to me, like the wonderful thing about theatre when you're working with, especially when you're working with a director and the team that you really vibe with is, you know, sometimes it feels like you're modeling in the room what you want the world to be like, and that can feel like an absolute gift that you don't really get. I can't think of any other space, maybe, except for organizing where you get that, where you're able to sort of come in and like you're remaking the world as you make the play and the theatricality of it 100% it's like, it's just, you know, it does. I have, you know, I've got a really, I think I've always, always been described as cheeky ever since I was a kid. And I think it's that cheekiness that I'd want to, sort of like, have that fun on stage. And it remains to be seen whether I can, sort of like translate that onto screen as well. But I think that that is, I think that is sort of like key, especially if you're trying to say, especially if you're trying to tell the more difficult story, which I think probably I often am, is you need to have that sense of fun and theatricality and playfulness in order to make it land.

Shiroma 36:30

And it's dynamic and immediate.

Sonali 36:32

Yeah.

Jaswinder 36:33

I wonder, you know, you've kind of talked about your political commitments as a writer, and your own thinking about how your writing can kind of contribute to social change. I wonder what your thoughts are bit more broadly about the role of theatre and the arts in left organizing, actually. I think there's a kind of awkward relationship, maybe specifically on the British left. So it's really interesting to hear you talk about how different that is in kind of Bengali culture. What is the kind of role of theatre and artists more broadly, in terms of their place in supporting social movements?

Sonali 37:08

Yeah, I think it's got trickier and trickier in this country. Because, I mean, okay, like so right now, British theatre is in crisis. You know, British theatres have been begging to be properly supported by government for years now, the latest government have just said, no, our latest government are fully, seem to be very keen to just pursue a relationship with big tech companies on AI instead, which creatives have explicitly said, you know, threatened to not just erode our livelihoods, but British culture, you know, like in general. And so that's a really scary time to sort of like be trying to make theatre and I think that at the moment, it feels like a really difficult time to make theatre. Tickets have got more expensive because the funding has been, has been lessened, and that makes it harder for people to go and see theatre. So it's not unreasonable for anyone to think that theatre is a bit like inaccessible right now. I mean, who am I to argue like, if you haven't got, you know, even one of the cheapest seats is going to cost you 20, 25, quid. That's a lot of money like.

So it's difficult to, you know, it's difficult to say that they're wrong. It shouldn't be like that. I think that we, if we valued our art and culture in this country, which we should, because Britain forever, you know, trials and tribulations this country has gone through, art and culture has always been something that Britain has been known for across the world, and we should have a subsidized art and culture sector, much more subsidized than we do. The Arts Council should not be, you know, making noises to artists about reputational risk, and that would allow, yeah, that would allow a much, a much better relationship between, you know, audiences and theatre. But of course, the problem is not just whether people can afford to go to the theater. It's then about who can make theater and the in terms of, like, the landscape you the way that it works in Britain always has worked. It has worked for me, like, and I'm not unusual, is that, you know, you start writing for the stage, and then you also then become confident enough to write for the screen, and then for the big screen, and then that's how our ecosystem, sort of, like, flourishes and thrives. And without that, the whole thing is going to become decimated, and we are going to see less and less people being able to write for these spaces, and only people who can afford to which will make our culture more limited and boring.

Jaswinder 39:53

And I wonder, on that kind of note, about the landscape for writers, could you say a little bit about your reflections? On British, South Asian theatre specifically, and how you've seen opportunities for those voices and those stories change emerge or not over the time period in which you've been writing?

Sonali 40:10

Yeah, I think it's still hard. Unfortunately, I think that there it's got better, you know, there's some great South Asian writers, you know, there's like, like, I say like, Zain, Waleed, there's been, and obviously people like Gurpreet, who've been writing for much longer, you know, some real talent. But I think it is still, I still think we are. I don't think we see enough South Asian stories on stages, especially the big stages, you know, chasing here, Chasing Hares were the Young Vic. I think there hadn't been a, like, a brown play, like South Asian characters, for like, 20 years.

Jaswinder 40:47

And that was also because it had won the Political Playwriting Award.

Sonali 40:51

And the Sonia Friedman production, yeah, won two awards, yeah.

Rukhsana 40:54

There was a play on the national wasn't there on what was it? On one of the Mughal Kinds.

Sonali 41:01

Yeah, but at the Young Vic. I was saying so before Chasing Hares, there hadn't been, I don't think there has been since then. But, yeah, there has been, but there haven't been enough plays ar the National either, I'd argue, like, and obviously the ones that have been on have been Indhu's work like, and so like, maybe, hopefully things will change now. But I think that why, and I don't, I'm not at all someone who would, I would never, ever pit minorities against each other. I think that's a really defeatist and like self defeating and reductive thing to do. I'm not trying to say, like any, you know, any of us deserve to be on stage more than others, but I think it's really noticeable that we are like, South Asian people, like, if you were to use that as a, like a term, we're the biggest sort of, like minority group in the country. And then if you look at how much representation we have, equally, I'm not like a big person of to do talk about representation, but even just on that most basic level, we don't have enough representation.

Shiroma 42:01

On that note about minorities and identities, how has, how have identities changed from your theatew writing experience? How have you changed?

Sonali 42:13

But I guess I find it surprising people want to hear what I have to say. Genuinely. Feel really humbled that people do, oh, God, I'm making myself cringe. But it's true. You know, I feel really flattered that people are interested in what I have to say. I'm surprised that people sometimes find what I'm saying surprising. And I guess there becomes a bit of a feedback loop where, you know, I feel really lucky to be able to convey my ideas and then hear from people who, for whom my work has meant something, and then we can have a conversation about it. I guess it sort of speaks to, I think when I was searching, I was really isolated growing up, was really an isolated kid, and it sort of really speaks to, I guess I feel like, through my work, I feel like I'm part of community now.

Shiroma 42:58

And has that community changed its representation?

Sonali 43:03

I don't think, yeah. I mean, like, when I started off writing, like, if I if I was to say, like, pre impasse, like, you know, I sort of said my career is maybe, like, split into two, that first part of my career, I think that I didn't have a community, really. It felt like I was sort of swimming against the tide, and I was always treated like a very odd fish, and I had to be careful what I said. And it was made very clear to me, explicitly and implicitly by different people in quite high positions at that point, that I shouldn't let people know what my politics are, that I should keep quiet about them. I shouldn't talk about misogyny and racism, because that would, you know, be bad for me. And it feels like I'm not saying things are perfect, but it feels like, certainly, I am now part of a community where we can talk about those things honestly and uplift each other and look out for each other.

Shiroma 44:00

So those voices have got bolder.

Sonali 44:02

I think there's more of us now, and I think that we, I think there's less of a sense sense of individualism. So although obviously, like professional competitiveness is always there, but still, I think there's a bigger sense that we have to look out for each other, and that we have to be part of an artistic community that uplifts and show that. And I see not just artists, I mean audiences as well. And audiences are coming. I think to see work really. I you know what? Social media probably makes a big difference. The fact that people can like contact you. I know there's all kinds of like, negative stuff at the moment, but I think there's incredibly positive that people can connect and share their ideas, and you can have a conversation with someone who came to see your work in like Sheffield, even though you don't live there, and that's really important and empowering for both of us.

Shiroma 44:54

And those audiences are becoming wider, more diverse?

Sonali 44:57

I hope so. Yeah, I think so. I think that. Something certainly like Liberation Squares was an interesting one, because it's the first, it's the first touring play I've ever written. And it went everywhere. It went like, you know, Oxford, Birmingham, Coventry, Sheffield, Bolton, Brixton, everywhere. And I guess we were trying to, sort of like, in a way, in a way you're always trying to prove yourself as well, but also the venues do want to, sort of want you to prove it that you can get an audience for our work, and that that audience doesn't necessarily, isn't necessarily just brown women, or obviously we want to see loads of brown women in theatre, in theatres, but it means that, though, that there's a diverse audience who wants to engage with our work. And there is there 100%.

Shiroma 45:44

That's absolutely great.

Rukhsana 45:46

Is there a favorite play of yours amongst yours? Which is your favorite for?

Sonali 45:50

For me, I mean, it probably is, King Troll. King Trolls, very in my head at the moment, because I'm working on a screen adaptation. Yeah. Thank you. And so that's like, it's very in my head, because now that I'm being been allowed to sort of think about it in a more expansive way for another medium, I'm obviously like teasing out more and more stuff, and I'm having more fun with it. So it's very live for me at the moment.

Rukhsana 45:14

Fantastic. And can you do you have, is there a moment, or is there a line from it that you would like to quote?

Sonali 46:21

I think it's when Shashi says it's not enough that you that we ride on the unicycle, we have to jump through a hoop of fire on it as well. In terms of the migrant experience.

Rukhsana 46:32

That's lovely. Thank you. Thank you.

Shiroma 46:35

Thank you very much.

Sonali 46:36

Thank you.

Shiroma 46:43

The next act is executive produced by Jaswinder Blackwell-Pal, Shiroma Silva and Rukhsana Ahmad. It is edited and assistant produced by Kavita Kukar and Malia Haider. Our research assistant is Carrie Luce and the technical producer is Matthew Kowalczuk. Our designer is Arjun Mahadevan. It is funded and supported by the Center for Public Engagement and the Department of drama at Queen Mary University of London. You can follow up online at www.thenextact.co.uk.